Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Association (SFWA) - Nerds protecting nonces

[Mola Ram]

You are exactly right. Which is why any fandom is a big turn off. For whatever reason, I have been more exposed to Tolkien fans. I heard trekkies are way worse.

Trekkies are whack jobs. The most active part of the fandom is also really old. I was drumming up support for a genre-related event and dropped in on the local Trekkie group and I was one of the youngest people there ... and I'm solidly Gen X. Boomers, Boomers everywhere!

I also met a guy in his 50s who was still seething over Shatner's "Get a life, it's just a TV show!" appearance on SNL. That was in 1986, if you don't recall.

I don't even know if Trekkies are the craziest, though. The Harry Potter fandom collectively lost its mind even before the tranny stuff, with its hyperfixation on those books over all others. And anything -- anything -- that's furry adjacent is probably even worse.

But you're not wrong about Tolkien fandom. They can be incredibly snobbish and inflexible, a hyperfixation like the Potterheads with a bigger vocabulary.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

The problem with Tolkien is that he is not literature, but the publishing industry and his fans insist that he is.

Let me guess, "literature" is a narcissistic faggot writing about being a narcissistic faggot like what wins all the literary prizes.

 

[AnOminous]

This is a terrible oversimplification of Tolkien. It's not just good vs. evil. Which camp is Denethor? Theoden before Gandalf heals him? The Sackville-Baggineses? Is Saruman merely out for himself or has he become a pure puppet of Mordor? Was Isildur a villain merely because he kept the Ring?

Tolkien, if anything, had an incredibly complex system of morality that should not ever be explained as some black-and-white bullshit.

This may be a flaw of how idiots ripping off Tolkien have interpreted him, but it isn't what he wrote.

I also met a guy in his 50s who was still seething over Shatner's "Get a life, it's just a TV show!" appearance on SNL. That was in 1986, if you don't recall.

This is why Shatner RULES. I love that he made retards seethe for literal DECADES just by saying "get a life."

 

[Mola Ram]

literal DECADES

You know I thought the guy was kidding at first? I was a pretty big Trek fan -- never Trekkie level, but I grew up on TOS reruns and I loved the TOS movies (when they were good, anyway) -- but I also can't imagine that sketch as anything but a Hall of Fame level SNL bit. Shatner's amazing, but it's Lovitz's reaction when he's asked if he's ever even kissed a girl that slew me.

But no. A grudge of nearly forty years, because Shatner "betrayed the people who made him famous."

I don't think those were his exact words, but close enough.

 

[Argos]

I keep thinking I should join the Science Fiction Book Club. Then I look at what's popular and come to my senses.

 

[Privilege Power Hour]

One of the problems with fandom (especially in regards to things like Tolkien and Trek) is that eventually you just run out of things to talk about, especially if there's no new blood coming in. Tolkien probably fares better because there's some actual scholarly work that can still be done on him, but what does fandom-level discussion still have left to say, especially if nobody new is watching/reading? Flexing that you know the legendarium really well? That you know all the behind-the-scenes trivia about the making of the Peter Jackson movies? Repeating the same well-worn reasons that you and everyone else like Gandalf so much?

The most active part of the fandom is also really old. I was drumming up support for a genre-related event and dropped in on the local Trekkie group and I was one of the youngest people there ... and I'm solidly Gen X. Boomers, Boomers everywhere!

Case in point, Trek discussion seems to just go in circles because everyone knows the new stuff is bad, anyone into the new stuff isn't going to become a Trekkie but is in the "I like watching the latest TV show" fandom, and a bunch of ancient fans are just going keep repeating the same reasons that the fandom settled on XYZ episodes being good or bad 30+ years ago. There's nothing new to say and with the internet making fandom a big part of being into something, who wants to join a fandom that decided everything well before you were born and doesn't seem open to any new ideas about the media they like and won't be getting any decent new media for the foreseeable future?

 

[teriyakiburns]

Tolkien, if anything, had an incredibly complex system of morality that should not ever be explained as some black-and-white bullshit.

This may be a flaw of how idiots ripping off Tolkien have interpreted him, but it isn't what he wrote.

All the problems people have with Tolkien are,as you suggest, actually the flaws of Tolkien's imitators, and all those imitators exist almost entirely because of lester del ray. Tolkien wanted to write a mythopoeic work; a modern-day saga, like Beowulf. A fairy tale, in the old, epic sense of the term. He didn't set out to write a fantasy story, not did the genre even exist back then.

When people criticise Tolkien, they're actually criticising the for-profit genre mill del ray established to exploit the sudden demand for tolkien-style literature. He's the real reason fantasy exists as a genre, but also the reason it's so hidebound and formulaic. And yes, so black and white.

Works cited:

 

[Flexo]

You are exactly right. Which is why any fandom is a big turn off. For whatever reason, I have been more exposed to Tolkien fans. I heard trekkies are way worse.

We are.

Also a lot of overlap.

At least we're not Homestuck fans.

Case in point, Trek discussion seems to just go in circles because everyone knows the new stuff is bad, anyone into the new stuff isn't going to become a Trekkie but is in the "I like watching the latest TV show" fandom, and a bunch of ancient fans are just going keep repeating the same reasons that the fandom settled on XYZ episodes being good or bad 30+ years ago. There's nothing new to say and with the internet making fandom a big part of being into something, who wants to join a fandom that decided everything well before you were born and doesn't seem open to any new ideas about the media they like and won't be getting any decent new media for the foreseeable future?

That's only MOSTLY the Trek thread here.

We still have our memes.

 

[Tin Foil Hatter]

Trekkies are whack jobs. The most active part of the fandom is also really old. I was drumming up support for a genre-related event and dropped in on the local Trekkie group and I was one of the youngest people there ... and I'm solidly Gen X. Boomers, Boomers everywhere!

I also met a guy in his 50s who was still seething over Shatner's "Get a life, it's just a TV show!" appearance on SNL. That was in 1986, if you don't recall.

I don't even know if Trekkies are the craziest, though. The Harry Potter fandom collectively lost its mind even before the tranny stuff, with its hyperfixation on those books over all others. And anything -- anything -- that's furry adjacent is probably even worse.

But you're not wrong about Tolkien fandom. They can be incredibly snobbish and inflexible, a hyperfixation like the Potterheads with a bigger vocabulary.

You know, there was a huffpost article that said there were a lot of trekkies who were pedos.

Pedophilia and Star Trek

If you're a pedophile, odds are you've watched a lot of Star Trek.

www.huffpost.com

I can see that being a thing, but at the same time i don't trust huffpo either. It reminds me of the mary sue when the went after 40k, and I wonder if those were a combined smear attack to steam roll themselves into the fandoms?

then again when i look back at the start of this thread i see the sex offenders in the sci fi and fantasy genera there probably is a connection.

As for the fandoms being snobs, have you seen what happens when we take away the gatekeepers? You get purple haired retards demanding female space marines or other stupid shit. Amazon tried there "rangs of powah!" faggotry, all because the Tolkenites didn't gatekeep hard enough. The witcher is getting utterly destroyed too. Part of it is corporate america is full of isolated coastal elites who don't understand a God damn thing about the franchises that they are making money off of, but the other part is the gramsci culture war. Gramsci was a retarded commie kike that didn't understand the diminishing return, and so when everything becomes lefty political, the diminishing return hits and the market will demand ANYTHING else.

Trench crusade looked promising, but my understanding was they capitulated a bit to the woke crowd. I have not been following the culture war as hard as i should be because i am following the AI bubble and am trying to figure how bad the economic impact will be when that pops and cascades all over the tech and manufacturing sector.

 

[Tin Foil Hatter]

We are.

Also a lot of overlap.

At least we're not Homestuck fans.


That's only MOSTLY the Trek thread here.

We still have our memes.
Wyświetl załącznik 8266877

Something i have noticed, and i use this as my new yardstick: The more memes something generates the better it is. If a show does not generate memes, then it's trash. This isn't a 100% true rule but it's true enough that i can filter out if a popular movie is good or not by the memes that come out of it.

 

[Mola Ram]

Amazon tried there "rangs of powah!" faggotry, all because the Tolkenites didn't gatekeep hard enough.

This isn't really the situation. Middle-earth was unique in that it had a dedicated, stalwart gatekeeper in the form of JRRT's son Christopher, who not only kept putting out new collations of his father's seemingly endless notes, but who rigidly adhered to JRRT's vision for what the books should be. There were a few adaptations pre-2001, but most of them didn't amount to much: the Bakshi and Rankin/Bass cartoons (all of which had their flaws, sometimes very severe flaws); the BBC radio plays (which are highly regarded); some tabletop and video games of varying degrees of quality; merch like calendars and posters. Pretty standard fare, but nothing earthshattering.

Then the Peter Jackson movies landed and it exploded in popularity, well past the point where gatekeeping was possible. But Christopher held a very low opinion of the films, and wouldn't permit exploitation beyond what had already been sold, and did everything he could to make sure whatever spinoff products were produced kept true to the spirit of the books.

Then Christopher died (he made it to 95), what family control of the material that still remained passed to JRRT's grandson Simon ... and Simon is a talentless hack vulture who cares only about how much cash he can squeeze out of grampa's corpse. His control of the empire coincided with 2020, the Year Everything Went Crazy, so of course the adaptation he signed off on was full of DEI garbage. He wasn't pushing it. He just didn't give a shit. And how do you gatekeep the original author's grandson, no matter what a despicable piece of shit he is?

 

[JJLiautaud]

I've just reread the Children of Hurin and man what a fucking book, I need to reread Lord of the Rings but honestly the Charn is probably my favourite of Tolkien's stories.

 

[Tin Foil Hatter]

This isn't really the situation. Middle-earth was unique in that it had a dedicated, stalwart gatekeeper in the form of JRRT's son Christopher, who not only kept putting out new collations of his father's seemingly endless notes, but who rigidly adhered to JRRT's vision for what the books should be. There were a few adaptations pre-2001, but most of them didn't amount to much: the Bakshi and Rankin/Bass cartoons (all of which had their flaws, sometimes very severe flaws); the BBC radio plays (which are highly regarded); some tabletop and video games of varying degrees of quality; merch like calendars and posters. Pretty standard fare, but nothing earthshattering.

Then the Peter Jackson movies landed and it exploded in popularity, well past the point where gatekeeping was possible. But Christopher held a very low opinion of the films, and wouldn't permit exploitation beyond what had already been sold, and did everything he could to make sure whatever spinoff products were produced kept true to the spirit of the books.

Then Christopher died (he made it to 95), what family control of the material that still remained passed to JRRT's grandson Simon ... and Simon is a talentless hack vulture who cares only about how much cash he can squeeze out of grampa's corpse. His control of the empire coincided with 2020, the Year Everything Went Crazy, so of course the adaptation he signed off on was full of DEI garbage. He wasn't pushing it. He just didn't give a shit. And how do you gatekeep the original author's grandson, no matter what a despicable piece of shit he is?

Ah, i didn't know about the grandson. That's a shame. I liked the rankin and bass cartoons, and thundercats was legit and rewatching that now i am saddened that we don't see that much effort in today's fiction. They had a child psychologist advising on that show, and it shows in the moral lessons. At the same time i also get this feeling that is why they went out of their way to sabotage it in recent years.

This is why i am getting into writing: Star wars was killed, Lotr was killed, star trek was killed; anything these fucks touch turns to shit. The stories were how lessons were taught to the younger generation, and they have gone though, destroyed them, and replaced it with degenerate faggotry. It's vile and evil.

So it's not so much "i want to write" as it is" i want to leave better stories for the next generation". I don't think i can write well, but i can write better than the trash they are seeing, and it's just cruel that they missed out on good stories.

 

[Mola Ram]

Ah, i didn't know about the grandson.

I'd heard people talking about him a lot after Rings of Power was announced and how worried they were, especially after Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey left the project. Then, by pure coincidence, I came across an old clip from Antiques Roadshow where Simon's wife was getting a personal copy of The Hobbit, complete with an inscribed note from JRRT, appraised. This was from the early 90s, maybe late 80s, so Simon's eagerness to sell out his inheritance is of longstanding duration.

It all makes me very fearful for what might happen to Calvin & Hobbes after Bill Watterson dies.

 

[Flexo]

This is why i am getting into writing: Star wars was killed, Lotr was killed, star trek was killed; anything these fucks touch turns to shit. The stories were how lessons were taught to the younger generation, and they have gone though, destroyed them, and replaced it with degenerate faggotry. It's vile and evil

That's how a lot of stuff gets made...

https://scifiwright.com/starquest-campaign/

I could rant so much more about this but it would probably dox my location in Mexico so I'll just say even if you don't want to write, it would be a huge difference just to help promote a lot of writers who are putting in the effort that you enjoy

 

[Loose Goose]

There is ultimately no saving these old corporate controlled properties, until at least they go public domain. They are gone to the Shadow. They are Osgiliath and Minas Ithil, when you've got to save Minas Tirith first.

The only sensible thing you can realistically do is support new, talented authors who have things together, and who are making something decent. None of the energy spent on trying to unpoz Star Wars or LotR will produce anything, but supporting young guys writing decent genre stuff is worth your time. Not because everything they do will be good, but because they are creating an alternative ecosystem where good things can emerge and not just get killed off by someone who just rejects everything appealing to men.

Cirsova is a fantasy magazine whose owners have their heads screwed on right, and while it is kinda hit and miss, you can get some good stuff from them. DMR Books is releasing short story compilations that always have a few really nice ones, and they are low key based too. You aren't getting Tolkien or Howard yet, but when someone like that comes along, he will have a home and a buying public. Be that buying public, and the talent will emerge.

 

[I was a Teenage “JA”-man]

Great, there’s even a guild for writers who specifically write fiction
Yo, can unions go back to being for jobs that nobody wants to do but are necessary? As an attempt to make them palatable?

 

[AnOminous]

But no. A grudge of nearly forty years, because Shatner "betrayed the people who made him famous."

He gave them good advice. Anyone that line applied to needed to have it said to them.

If that line offends you, you are SERIOUSLY in need of getting a life.

 

[teriyakiburns]

and Simon is a talentless hack vulture who cares only about how much cash he can squeeze out of grampa's corpse. His control of the empire coincided with 2020, the Year Everything Went Crazy, so of course the adaptation he signed off on was full of DEI garbage.

He certainly squeezed hard, then. The producers of Rings of power only had the rights to a small set of footnotes from the silmarillion and legally couldn't reference almost anything else.

 

[Mola Ram]

He certainly squeezed hard, then. The producers of Rings of power only had the rights to a small set of footnotes from the silmarillion and legally couldn't reference almost anything else.

Yeah, that's always puzzled me, and the only explanation I can think of is that there's some tangled issue with the rights to anything outside the four main books, or Simon wanted the earth for that material. I didn't think they had rights to anything from The Silmarillion, and they sure don't have Unfinished Tales or the histories or the later storyfied versions of the notes like Beren and Luthien or Children of Hurin.

There is another explanation, though it's kind of paranoid: the producers didn't want the rights to anything beyond the Appendices and the main text (which has lots of references to the First and Second ages) because it gave them more freedom to make whatever dumbass slops they wanted.