Neither computer software nor computer hardware can ever, not even in a trillion years, possibly instantiate AI - change my mind

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Artificial light is still light, and artificial sweetener is still sweetener. Artificial intelligence would still have to be intelligence.

You're almost there...so now what happens if we agree that in this case, the word "artificial" is not in fact an adjective describing a noun (such as with your examples of sweetener or light). What if "artificial intelligence" were in fact simply a noun by itself....?

Well then I suppose that would change things wouldn't it?

So you see, your entire collection of mindless ponderings amount to nothing simply because you don't know how language works. Must be the autism.

I hated to bait you like that, but it's the only way you'll learn. Carry on.
 
"Artificial intelligence" can indeed function as a compound noun. That changes nothing about the argument, which is about whether the category "artificial intelligence" is philosophically and literally justified.
Your own cited definition says "computer systems that can copy intelligent human behaviour"
Emphasis on "copy"
Which is exactly my point.

If "AI" means "systems that copy intelligent human behavior", then the term is not naming intelligence. The term is naming imitation of intelligence-looking behavior.

So either "artificial intelligence" means actual artificial intelligence, in which case no system that we know of qualifies as such.
Or "artificial intelligence" is a conventional computing term for systems that copy intelligent behavior, in which case the term is misleading and my criticism of the label stands.

If your goal was showing that you don't understand what a dictionary is (it records word usage), or that you somehow think a dictionary proves that the usage of a term is conceptually clean, then I guess you succeeded in shooting yourself in the foot. For what you have shown is that the common term itself bakes in the equivocation between intelligence and imitation.
 
OP's argument is one of semantics. I shall use the common distinction of intelligence and wisdom: intelligence is a capacity for knowledge and wisdom is the application of knowldege. If you were to ask an intelligent person a question, they will think and provide an answer. This is essentially what AI does. What an AI does not do, and can't do, is apply wisdom in its solving of a problem. The misapplication of AI is no different from the human failure of being unable to seperate intelligence from wisdom, a tale older than humanity itself.
 
OP's argument is one of semantics.
That doesn't dismiss the argument. Definitions are exactly what's at issue.
I shall use the common distinction of intelligence and wisdom: intelligence is a capacity for knowledge and wisdom is the application of knowldege. If you were to ask an intelligent person a question, they will think and provide an answer. This is essentially what AI does. What an AI does not do, and can't do, is apply wisdom in its solving of a problem. The misapplication of AI is no different from the human failure of being unable to seperate intelligence from wisdom, a tale older than humanity itself.
I reject this split as you apply it.
If intelligence means "capacity for knowledge", then current "AI" still does not qualify, for it does not know or grasp facts or understand what its words refer to. All it does is produce outputs from patterns in data.
When an intelligent person is answering a question, he is not merely generating a plausible response. He is aware of the question, understands the meaning of the terms, relates them to reality, judges what is true or false, and can know why an answer is correct. Which is cognition.
"Wisdom" would be something like good judgment in applying knowledge to life, action, priorities, consequences etc. Which current systems lack also. Except the problem begins earlier, for they lack knowledge in the first place. A model can output a correct answer without knowing the answer, the same way a calculator can output correct arithmetic without understanding mathematics.

So that's a flat no from me, "AI" is not "intelligence without wisdom". "AI" is machinery that produces answer-shaped outputs that humans interpret as meaningful.
The problem isn't that people are confusing intelligence and wisdom, but that people confuse useful output with cognition.
 
That doesn't dismiss the argument. Definitions are exactly what's at issue.

I reject this split as you apply it.
If intelligence means "capacity for knowledge", then current "AI" still does not qualify, for it does not know or grasp facts or understand what its words refer to. All it does is produce outputs from patterns in data.
When an intelligent person is answering a question, he is not merely generating a plausible response. He is aware of the question, understands the meaning of the terms, relates them to reality, judges what is true or false, and can know why an answer is correct. Which is cognition.
"Wisdom" would be something like good judgment in applying knowledge to life, action, priorities, consequences etc. Which current systems lack also. Except the problem begins earlier, for they lack knowledge in the first place. A model can output a correct answer without knowing the answer, the same way a calculator can output correct arithmetic without understanding mathematics.

So that's a flat no from me, "AI" is not "intelligence without wisdom". "AI" is machinery that produces answer-shaped outputs that humans interpret as meaningful.
The problem isn't that people are confusing intelligence and wisdom, but that people confuse useful output with cognition.
‘It does not know or grasp facts’, you are purposefully gatekeeping ‘know’ and ‘grasp’ behind something that cannot be objectively defined. Therefore an argument about it is irrelevant. I am saying that if we say intelligence is the ability to fetch correct answers to a certain question, then artificial intelligence is a suitable description for what the computer is doing. I don’t give a shit if it ‘grasps’ the answers it gives me or not.
 
you are purposefully gatekeeping ‘know’ and ‘grasp’ behind something that cannot be objectively defined.
That's not even an argument. Just because some concepts have difficult boundaries don't mean they don't have objective content.
I am saying that if we say intelligence is the ability to fetch correct answers to a certain question
You can define the word "intelligence" that way, but that is exactly the deflated definition I reject. Earlier in the thread, I pointed out how a mouse trap or a smoke alarm is has "intelligence" if you abuse the term so much that grasping, knowing, understanding, and awareness no longer matter. Basically, you're not solving a problem by reducing everything to externally measurable answer-output.
I don’t give a shit if it ‘grasps’ the answers it gives me or not.
That's really just conceding my point.
For practical tool-use, maybe you don't care. If all you want is potentially useful output, then the inner cognitive status may be irrelevant to you.
But this thread is not about whether "AI" is useful. It's about whether "AI" instantiates intelligence.
If the system does not know, grasp, understand, or mean anything by its answers, then calling it "intelligent" is precisely the category error I'm critiquing.

Basically, the only way "AI" is "intelligence" is if you remove the intelligence from "intelligence".
 
That's not even an argument. Just because some concepts have difficult boundaries don't mean they don't have objective content.
This is wholly philosophical. If you are making an argument, you have to put your semantics in a frame of reference, an anchor of objectivity. You can’t just say ‘this is objective, we just don’t fully understand it’. There’s no reference to anchor an argument and the argument is meaningless.
You can define the word "intelligence" that way, but that is exactly the deflated definition I reject. Earlier in the thread, I pointed out how a mouse trap or a smoke alarm is has "intelligence" if you abuse the term so much that grasping, knowing, understanding, and awareness no longer matter. Basically, you're not solving a problem by reducing everything to externally measurable answer-output.
Mouse traps and smoke detectors collect information and react to them, but they do not store information. The storage of information is a key criteria of intelligence which you are overlooking. The other missing piece is feedback, altering the information stored from previous inputs based on future inputs, outputs and (possibly) external scoring. You cannot ask a mouse trap or a smoke detector an arbitrary question. You can ask an LLM any question, even if different models are tuned for specific domains, they can all attempt to address any question.
That's really just conceding my point.
For practical tool-use, maybe you don't care. If all you want is potentially useful output, then the inner cognitive status may be irrelevant to you.
But this thread is not about whether "AI" is useful. It's about whether "AI" instantiates intelligence.
If the system does not know, grasp, understand, or mean anything by its answers, then calling it "intelligent" is precisely the category error I'm critiquing.
Not really. I am stating a practicality, not a concession. I’m not interested in your definition of grasp because you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge to be able to define it correctly.
Basically, the only way "AI" is "intelligence" is if you remove the intelligence from "intelligence".
This is only because you gatekeep the definition of ‘understand’, which does not have an objective definition. I would say that for practical purposes, ‘understand’ can be defined as the storage of information and the modification of that information with feedback for the purposes of constructing outputs. I think most people find that definition for the purposes of simulating it acceptable, and therefore AI is not a bad term.
 
This is wholly philosophical.
Yes, and it always has been. "What is intelligence?" is indeed a philosophical question.
That does not make it meaningless, if that's what you were mistakenly thinking. It means we need valid definitions instead of smuggling in whatever engineering shortcut happens to be convenient.
you have to put your semantics in a frame of reference, an anchor of objectivity. You can’t just say ‘this is objective, we just don’t fully understand it’. There’s no reference to anchor an argument and the argument is meaningless.
Nonsense. The objective anchor is and always has been that intelligence is a cognitive faculty. It involves awareness of reality, a grasp of facts, the understanding of meaning, judgment, and the ability to relate concepts to what they refer to.
You're free to reject that, of course, but then you'd be no longer talking about intelligence in the ordinary serious sense. You'd be talking about output-production.
Mouse traps and smoke detectors collect information and react to them, but they do not store information. The storage of information is a key criteria of intelligence which you are overlooking.
Overlooking isn't the right word. I'm rejecting it as sufficient. Storage does not create understanding.
A hard drive stores information. It does not understand that information. A library stores information. The library does not know what the books mean. A tape recorder stores speech, it does not understand the speech. A database can store and retrieve answers, but it does not therefore possess intelligence.
So adding "storage" does not rescue your definition.
The other missing piece is feedback, altering the information stored from previous inputs based on future inputs, outputs and (possibly) external scoring.
That's not enough. A spam filter updates from feedback, that doesn't mean it understands anything.
Storage + feedback + output construction is still just machinery unless there is awareness, meaning, and grasp.
Basically what you're doing is trying to rebuild intelligence from external functional behavior while leaving out the cognitive faculty itself.
You cannot ask a mouse trap or a smoke detector an arbitrary question. You can ask an LLM any question, even if different models are tuned for specific domains, they can all attempt to address any question.
You can ask an LLM any question because it is a language-output system trained on absolutely massive amounts of human linguistic material. From that, an LLM obtains broad verbal coverage. But understanding is not established. A system can absolutely attempt an answer without knowing what the question means. This is the issue.
I would say that for practical purposes, ‘understand’ can be defined as the storage of information and the modification of that information with feedback for the purposes of constructing outputs.
No, that simply isn't understanding. It is, however, a proposed recipe for simulating understanding-like output.

I'd like to point out that your own choice of words gives the game away:
for the purposes of simulating it

Simulating understanding is not understanding.
A flight simulator doesn't fly, a weather simulation is not weather, a simulated fire doesn't burn. And a simulated understanding does not understand.

If your practical engineering definition is "the system stores data, updates from feedback, and produces useful outputs", that's fine, feel free to use that definition in an engineering context. But do not pretend that you have thereby established intelligence. You have only abused the definition of "understanding" to the point that a sufficiently elaborate data processing system qualifies. You may call it objective precision, I call it fancy concept vandalism.
 
That's not enough. A spam filter updates from feedback, that doesn't mean it understands anything.
Storage + feedback + output construction is still just machinery unless there is awareness, meaning, and grasp.
Basically what you're doing is trying to rebuild intelligence from external functional behavior while leaving out the cognitive faculty itself.
You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. The feedback must be used to modify information in the database, not just update the database. A spam filter that does that would indeed be an AI-based spam filter. AFAICT, AI and ML are the same thing. ML was introduced because of the failure of AI in the 80s that the ML researchers did not want to deal with.

There is a reason we call it AI and not just I.
 
You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying.
No, you're just restating the same deflated engineering convention as before.
Whether the system "updates the database" or "modifies information in the database" does not change the issue at hand, it's still state modification, it's still machinery changing stored patterns according to inputs and rules. Which does not establish awareness, grasp, meaning, judgment, or understanding.
If you want to call that "AI-based" in the engineering/marketing sense, that is exactly the terminology I am criticizing.
AFAICT, AI and ML are the same thing.
Which just confirms the category inflation. Machine learning is not intelligence. ML is a method for fitting, updating, or applying models from data. Calling it AI does not make it cognition.
There is a reason we call it AI and not just I.
Yes, the "A" refers to the origin (artificial rather than natural). The noun, however, is not erased by doing that.
Artificial intelligence would still have to be intelligence. If what you actually mean is "machine learning system that stores, modifies, and outputs data" then just say it. Or just accept that your engineering shorthand is simply offtopic in a philosophy discussion in which this very shorthand is being criticized. And certainly do not smuggle in "intelligence" and then get annoyed when someone asks where the intelligence is.

At this point, really, engage the distinction or stop replying.
The distinction is between
A: machine learning / data modification / output generation
B: intelligence / awareness / understanding / grasp of meaning

If you keep treating A as if it answers B, then you are just repeating the exact conflation this thread is about. If you want to contribute anything but spam, you'd need to explain how state modification becomes understanding, or how stored data becomes knowledge, or how output generation becomes judgment, or how any of this becomes meaningful to the system itself. Anything short of that is just "engineers call it AI" with extra steps.
 
No, you're just restating the same deflated engineering convention as before.
Whether the system "updates the database" or "modifies information in the database" does not change the issue at hand, it's still state modification, it's still machinery changing stored patterns according to inputs and rules. Which does not establish awareness, grasp, meaning, judgment, or understanding.
If you want to call that "AI-based" in the engineering/marketing sense, that is exactly the terminology I am criticizing.
The two aren't the same and the distinction is important for defining an AI system vs an algorithmic system. There's no sense continuing the discussion if you can't accept that.
 
The two aren't the same and the distinction is important for defining an AI system vs an algorithmic system. There's no sense continuing the discussion if you can't accept that.
I agree, there's no sense continuing if you keep treating engineering taxonomy as an answer to the philosophical question. I asked how A becomes B, you replied A has subcategories.
 
If a company knowingly represents a non-intelligent tool as intelligent in order to manipulate investment, labor markets, valuations, or consumer decisions, that's attempted fraud through semantic deception. Categorically impermissible.
Do you think the government should step in and fine them for false advertising?
thinking cat 4.jpg
 
Do you think the government should step in and fine them for false advertising?
Not in the slightest.
The fact that something is fraud, and fraud is impermissible, does not imply "therefore the state should handle it" or magically make the state legitimate.
If someone is defrauded, the proper remedy is restitution to the victim, not a regulator extracting fines for the state.



That's the whole point of the Turing Test.
the Turing Test doesn't solve the problem. What it does is test whether a machine can produce behavior that a human judge fails to distinguish from human behavior. That is simply not the same thing as testing whether the machine is intelligent. A successful imitation of intelligent behavior is still just imitation, unless the underlying cognitive faculty is present
"Intelligence" is a vague concept.
Even if that were the case, that does not mean that "therefore output mimicry counts". Many real concepts have difficult edges, but that does not erase the core meaning. Take "green", for instance. Where does "green" end and "turquoise" begin?
Anyway, I already repeatedly stated the relevant distinction, namely that intelligence is a cognitive faculty. It involves awareness, grasp, meaning, judgment, understanding, concept formation, and a relation to reality. A computer producing text does not establish any of that.
 
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