Neither computer software nor computer hardware can ever, not even in a trillion years, possibly instantiate AI - change my mind

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XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG

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14 Lis 2022
Going out on a limb to make an extreme point. A single counterexample or proof of the possibility is enough to refute me on this.

I despise contemporary discussion around "AI" because, the way I see it, "AI" simply does not exist. At best, it's a misleading marketing term (read: disinformation) for large language models (LLMs) or other ""learning"" algorithms. What does exist is machinery that simulates certain outputs associated with intelligence. My reasoning may be familiar to you if you are very savvy in good epistemology.


A digital computer is a physical switching system. A computer's hardware consists of transistors, voltages, memory cells, circuits, charge states, and causal electrical transitions. The "software" running on any digital computer is not a thinking substance floating above the hardware. When you reduce the concept properly, "software" is a human way of interpreting physical arrangements and transitions in the machine.
A machine does not know that it is running a program. It does not know that some voltage pattern "means" the number 7 or the word "dog" or a chess position or a line of code. These meanings exist for us humans, but they do not exist for the machine. What the computer does is undergo physical state changes which were designed by humans, interpreted by humans, and are used for cognitive purposes.

To make an analogy: count with your fingers.
Are your fingers counting? No. You are counting.
Write some arithmetic on paper. Is the paper doing mathematics? No. You are.
Can you use a calculator to help you add numbers together? Yes. But the calculator is not aware of numbers. It is producing physical outputs according to its physical structure.
And that basic reasoning applies to more complicated machines. Increasing the number of switches does not change what kind of thing a switch is. A billion transistors are no more aware than one transistor. Or do a billion transistors suddenly become aware just by being numerous? A trillion statistical correlations or matrix multiplication weights are not a concept. Even the best state-of-the-art LLM that will be available in a million years is not a mind.

The only reason why things like programmed video game non-player character behavior or chatbots may seem intelligent is because the input and output are already saturated with human meaning.
Think about it, specifically for LLMs. The training data was written by humans (or generated from models that used training data written by humans), the task was defined by humans, the model was built by humans, the model is prompted by humans, the output is read by humans. The very marks on your screen, the ones you are reading right now, you as a human are interpreting these differently colored pieces of light as meaningful language. Everything semantic or genuinely cognitive or "intelligent" is happening in humans outside of the machine. Nothing of the sort is happening inside the machine.
A chatbot can imitate explanations because it has been trained on explanations. It can imitate reasoning because it has been trained on the written products of reasoning. It can imitate personality because it has been trained on human expression. However, imitation of cognitive output is not cognition.

When a tape recorder says "I understand", does the tape recorder understand? No.
Is a wax figure of a man alive? No.
The same way, a chatbot generating an essay about consciousness is not conscious.


But, XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG, human beings are also physical systems!​

So? It proves nothing.
Does the physical system have the kind of nature that is required for awareness, perception, concept formation, judgment, valuation, and volition? For humans, the answer is yes. For every computational machine, the answer is no.
Human beings are living organisms that perceive the world, act in it, have needs, face alternatives. Human beings form concepts from perceptual contact with reality (sensor input is by itself not perceptual awareness). Human beings validate ideas by reducing them back to reality. We human beings can direct our focus, question our own conclusions, reject invalid premises, and grasp that something is true or false.
A computer does none of that, because it has no perceptual contact with reality. It has no life to sustain. It has no values, no purposes of its own, no awareness of what "its" symbols refer to. It does not know when it is correct, it does not know when it is "hallucinating", it does not know anything. All it does is "produce" outputs. Which makes it machinery, not intelligence.

But, XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG, the machinery of computers is really impressive!​

Yes, I 100% agree. Changes nothing about my point though.
Is a telescope an astronomer because it helps humans see the stars? No, and by the same token, calling a LLM intelligent because it produces useful language is false.
Tools, such as telescopes, calculators, chatbots, computers, extend the efficacy and power of the human mind that chooses to use them. Unfortunately, human beings are easily seduced by language. If some thing speaks in full sentences, people will sooner or later start thinking that the thing has understanding. However, language without awareness is not thought. There is no "someone" inside the machine to whom words mean anything. There is no subject grasping an object. There is no mind that's identifying reality. There is no conceptual awareness. There is only a physical system producing patterns that humans then interpret.

But, XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG, maybe one day computer software or hardware will instantiate intelligence!​

Then the burden is on you to prove it. I promise I'll change my mind if you can pull it off.
However, hand waving is unacceptable. A proof of this point is not accomplished by just saying shit like "emergence" or "complexity" or asserting "the brain is basically a computer".
If you want to prove me wrong, explain how this specific kind of electrical switching (digital computation over interpreted symbols) becomes awareness. Explain how formal symbol manipulation becomes meaning. Explain how a digital machine with no life, no perception, no self-directed focus, and no intrinsic purposes suddenly becomes capable of understanding.
Until that has been done, "AI" remains a marketing term (read: disinformation) at best.

But, XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG, why do you care? Why should I care?​

Current "AI" is not merely overhyped, but the category label itself is false.
"AI" strongly implies the existence of artificial intelligence, which in turn means cognition, understanding, awareness, or agency. Current systems are not intelligent, therefore the label communicates a false impression, especially when paired with anthropomorphic marketing ("the AI thinks/knows/wants/understands/hallucinated/reasoned"). This, in turn, drives investment, hype, labor panic, policy proposals, and consumer behavior.
If a company knowingly represents a non-intelligent tool as intelligent in order to manipulate investment, labor markets, valuations, or consumer decisions, that's attempted fraud through semantic deception. Categorically impermissible.

But, XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG, what is the more appropriate term for these things that are driving all the hype and uprooting labor markets?​

Maybe something like "automated language engine" or "statistical text engine" or "artificial verbal behavior". If you're mean-spirited, "glorified matrix multiplication".
But "intelligence"? No. Not now, not in a trillion years.
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
I think there's a confusion of terms, AI is something that mimics intelligence, not agency. Everyone can count on their fingers and know that they are counting on their fingers, but not everyone can do nuclear/rocket/medical research even if they know they are trying. Its not the action of deciding to figure something out, but the ability to come to the correct output given certain inputs. Though I guess the way AI is talked about in the media and such, they make it seem like it is thinking (which is usually called AGI) and not just run through a bunch of filters based on a pre-trained dataset (then throw the output into the input and repeat until it dazzles retards).

Does the physical system have the kind of nature that is required for awareness, perception, concept formation, judgment, valuation, and volition? For humans, the answer is yes.
The answer is no, you have all of that forced upon you, with the constant input from sensors (perception, internal environment such as hunger from lack of sustenance), going through bio-electrical processes (awareness, concept formation, judgment, valuation and volition) a mix of neurons/hormones built from DNA/RNA, these processes can fail you through such neuropathies as schizophrenia/Alzheimer's.

But, XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG, maybe one day computer software or hardware will instantiate intelligence!
I'm not definitively saying AGI isn't possible, if they used hardware that more closely mimicked the brain in its entirely (think biological FPGA that can reconfigure itself), maybe its achievable but I don't think it would be the perfect superintelligence that its made out to be, and would probably learn/evolve biases that would make it as dangerous as human intelligence, on top of that, Many of its decisions would not be made on perfect information.

Probably not good for humanity either, we do not know how it would come to its decisions, and if it is super-intelligent, it could wipe us out rather simply. Either way, we are no where near that and its definitely not coming through the current generation of AI.
 
I think there's a confusion of terms
I agree, and the confusion is in calling mimicry "intelligence".
AI stands for "artificial intelligence". Not "artificial imitation of intelligence-looking outputs".
Artificial sweetener is a sweetener. Artificial light is light. Artificial intelligence would still have to be intelligent. If the thing is not intelligent, but merely produces outputs humans interpret as intelligent, then the label is false, period.
AI is something that mimics intelligence
Well, then my point is conceded. Mimicry of intelligence is not intelligence.
Its not the action of deciding to figure something out, but the ability to come to the correct output given certain inputs.
By that standard, a thermostat is intelligent. A smoke detector is intelligent. A spellchecker is intelligent.
I reject that standard, for it destroys the concept of intelligence in its entirety.
Output is output, cognition is cognition, the former (even if correct) is not in itself the latter. A calculator can output the right answer to 283*871, but it does not understand multiplication. A smoke alarm can output an alarm when smoke is detected, but it does not know what fire is. A chess engine can output a strong move, but it does not understand chess.
Everyone can count on their fingers and know that they are counting on their fingers, but not everyone can do nuclear/rocket/medical research even if they know they are trying.
I don't see how this touches on my argument. I'm not saying that intelligence means omniscience or the ability to solve every difficult problem. Humans can be intelligent and still fail at rocket science.
The issue is whether there is a subject grasping reality, forming concepts, judging truth or falsehood, and understanding what its symbols refer to.
Why shift the discussion? I never argued "we don't have AGI yet", rather I'm arguing that everything that has existed in this solar system up to and including May 13 2026 AD cannot be justifiably called "AI". No current digital computer/software system instantiates intelligence at all.
you have all of that forced upon you, with the constant input from sensors (perception, internal environment such as hunger from lack of sustenance), going through bio-electrical processes (awareness, concept formation, judgment, valuation and volition) a mix of neurons/hormones built from DNA/RNA, these processes can fail you through such neuropathies as schizophrenia/Alzheimer's.
Or, in short, human beings are physical biological organisms.
Unfortunately, saying that bio-electrical processes happen is not an explanation of awareness, concept formation, or understanding. A camera has input, a microphone has input, a thermometer has input. A computer has electrical processes. None of that gets you to awareness.

Look, I'm not saying or insinuating that humans are magic and machines are physical. I'm saying humans are indeed living conscious organisms with perceptual awareness, needs, values, agency, and conceptual cognition. Meanwhile, digital computers are physical switching systems whose "symbols" only mean anything to the humans interpreting them.
If you want to say future hardware could be some artificial biological organism or some lifelike self-maintaining conscious entity, that's fine, but it's not a counterexample to my claim about digital computers and software. I'm making a specific argument about currently existing systems, not speculating about artificial organisms. But even if your speculation were indulged, the burden remains. There's no explanation for how the proposed system becomes aware, how its symbols become meaningful to it, how it forms concepts, how it validates truth, and how there is a subject to whom any of this means anything.
Until then, "AI" is and remains not intelligence.
 
Using "Fancy matrix multiplication" as to imply that it is somehow lesser than normal program is absurd as matrix multiplication is turing complete, and so are our brains or at least according to our knowledge. If then there is going to be proper AI in the future there is nothing on theoretical level that would prevent it from being represented as matrix multiplication.
It is not known how intelligence emerges, and what takes something to become aware, as such discussion on the nature are pointless as they will lead nowhere until such knowledge is gained.
 
I'm not saying or insinuating that humans are magic and machines are physical
I would be fine making that claim, because I believe in the soul. I just don't know the mechanism for it.

If you don't think there's some higher level connection between consciousness/life and the purely physical/mechanical, then a human is just a fancy mechanical watch, and every thought and action is driven by a chemical gradient as the body winds down.

And if that's the case, a sufficiently complex computer that could replicate all your neurons is as much "alive" as you are. But if there *is* something special about consciousness that goes beyond what we know to be the rules of physics, then the best a machine can do is mimic human thought in a believable (possibly useful, possibly destructive) way.
 
AI stands for "artificial intelligence". Not "artificial imitation of intelligence-looking outputs".
Artificial sweetener is a sweetener. Artificial light is light. Artificial intelligence would still have to be intelligent.
If the artificial object is the object itself, why use the term artificial? (The source is different but produces the same output)
If the thing is not intelligent, but merely produces outputs humans interpret as intelligent, then the label is false, period.
If a human produces output that is considered intelligent, and the AI does the same, is it not intelligence? Whilst the source of that output is different and in the AI's case is significantly crippled compared to a human, if it can make

What about object classification? Take YOLO for instance, it can take an image and name objects in that image and give a location of that object within the image. Cognition and intelligence are different things. Cognition requires intelligence, intelligence does not require cognition.

By that standard, a thermostat is intelligent. A smoke detector is intelligent. A spellchecker is intelligent.
Depends on how you define/measure intelligence, If you define intelligence as: given a problem, the ability/capability to solve it correctly, (which is how it is defined when it comes to AI). Sure they possess intelligence, but such low intelligence they can only solve a single problem. which is why...
Why shift the discussion? I never argued "we don't have AGI yet", rather I'm arguing that everything that has existed in this solar system up to and including May 13 2026 AD cannot be justifiably called "AI". No current digital computer/software system instantiates intelligence at all.
AGI is what you seem to be arguing that the intelligence defined in AI is. One that has cognition and can then start solving other problems, usually of its own volition i.e. if machine intelligence hits the singularity. Also, thread title.

Look, I'm not saying or insinuating that humans are magic and machines are physical. I'm saying humans are indeed living conscious organisms with perceptual awareness, needs, values, agency, and conceptual cognition. Meanwhile, digital computers are physical switching systems whose "symbols" only mean anything to the humans interpreting them.
If you want to say future hardware could be some artificial biological organism or some lifelike self-maintaining conscious entity, that's fine, but it's not a counterexample to my claim about digital computers and software. I'm making a specific argument about currently existing systems, not speculating about artificial organisms. But even if your speculation were indulged, the burden remains.
All of which comes from biological hardware as far as we know, internal phyiscal processes. The future hardware will likely be biological, but doesn't have to be. Doesn't have to be digital either, could be analog. You do seem to be saying there are some magic to humans that isn't physical, you do not feel or know when and what each individual neuron is firing (the biological switching system) which leads to the perceptual awareness, needs, values, agency, and conceptual cognition that you have.
There's no explanation for how the proposed system becomes aware, how its symbols become meaningful to it, how it forms concepts, how it validates truth, and how there is a subject to whom any of this means anything.
Until then, "AI" is and remains not intelligence.
Depending on the definition of intelligence. AI, no, AGI would be the same as humans I guess, it'll evolve its meaning/concepts/validation from interactions with reality, it won't be born sentient, but with enough interactions will evolve/learn that it is.
 
People really gotta get it through their skulls that machine learning is not only completely dependent on inputs and the pajeets/jews that code its "behavior" - it also is not in any way intelligent. Machine learning code, i.e. 1s and 0s, binary, is not intelligent. It is very, very fast however. It is ludicrously fast. And it is that speed of function (and its very homosexual coded response phrases) which make it seem "intelligent" to midwits.

Computers are not smart, they are very fast.
 
Using "Fancy matrix multiplication" as to imply that it is somehow lesser than normal program is absurd as matrix multiplication is turing complete
How does that answer my argument?
My point was never that matrix multiplication is in any way "lesser" than "normal" programming. My point is that, no matter how great or sophisticated the computation is, computation is not automatically cognition.
Saying that something is "Turing complete" means that it can, in principle, express any computable function. That does not mean that it is aware. Nor does it mean that it understands, or that its symbols mean anything to it, nor that it has perception, concepts, judgment, valuation, or volition.
By that standard, a sufficiently arranged system of rocks and pulleys could be "intelligent" because it can instantiate a Turing machine. I hope it's obvious that this does not establish awareness or understanding. All it does establish is formal computability.
Which is just the same category error I'm complaining about, really. Confusing intelligence with the ability to produce outputs according to formal rules.
and so are our brains or at least according to our knowledge.
Can you show that intelligence consists in Turing-completeness?
Humans are not intelligent because they are allegedly Turing machines. Humans are intelligent because they are conscious biological organisms capable of perception, concept formation, judgment, valuation, and volitional focus.
A formal model of a thing is not the thing.
Or does a computer simulation of digestion digest food? Does a computer simulation of water soak the desk? A computer simulation of intelligence does not understand anything.
It is not known how intelligence emerges
Exactly. Now consider what that means.
If it is not known how intelligence emerges, then why the hell are people so comfortable calling these systems "artificial intelligence"?
If you admit that we do not know what it takes for a physical system to become aware, then the responsible conclusion is not "therefore maybe this is intelligence". The proper move is to stop pretending that the "intelligence" label has been earned.

Maybe one day someone can prove that some artificial system has genuine awareness and understanding, in which case they better show proof. Until then, calling current statistical text engines "AI" is a false category assignment.



I would be fine making that claim, because I believe in the soul. I just don't know the mechanism for it.

If you don't think there's some higher level connection between consciousness/life and the purely physical/mechanical, then a human is just a fancy mechanical watch, and every thought and action is driven by a chemical gradient as the body winds down.

And if that's the case, a sufficiently complex computer that could replicate all your neurons is as much "alive" as you are. But if there *is* something special about consciousness that goes beyond what we know to be the rules of physics, then the best a machine can do is mimic human thought in a believable (possibly useful, possibly destructive) way.
At its core, what you're saying is a false dichotomy.
Either humans have a super natural soul, therefore machines cannot think, or humans are just fancy mechanical watches, therefore sufficiently complex computers can think.
I reject both.
You do not need mysticism to reject machine "intelligence". Consciousness can be a real, natural, biological faculty without being reducible to "just computation" or "just mechanism" in the crude watch sense.
Describing the body in terms of chemical gradients, neurons, hormones, electrical activity etc. does not explain away consciousness. It merely describes some of the physical conditions involved in a living conscious organism. Likewise, saying that a sufficiently complex computer could replicate all your neurons does not prove anything unless you explain what "replicate" means and why the result would instantiate awareness rather than merely simulate the physical/functional description of awareness.
Like I'm saying above, a simulation of digestion does not digest food, a simulation of water does not soak the desk. A simulation of neural activity is not automatically a conscious subject.
And as much as I sympathize, neither "soul" nor "complex machine" do any explanatory work. Both are a way of putting a label on the unexplained.



If the artificial object is the object itself, why use the term artificial? (The source is different but produces the same output)
If a human produces output that is considered intelligent, and the AI does the same, is it not intelligence? Whilst the source of that output is different and in the AI's case is significantly crippled compared to a human, if it can make

What about object classification? Take YOLO for instance, it can take an image and name objects in that image and give a location of that object within the image. Cognition and intelligence are different things. Cognition requires intelligence, intelligence does not require cognition.
I think your disagreement is almost entirely contingent on defining "intelligence" so thinly that it stops meaning intelligence.

I agree artificial doesn't mean fake. Artificial light is light. Artificial sweetener is sweetener. And that is precisely my point.
Artificial light is not "something that produces outputs humans interpret as light-looking". It is light. Artificial sweetener is not "something that mimics sweetener-looking behavior". It actually sweetens.
So artificial intelligence would have to be intelligence.
If it is merely an imitation of intelligence-looking output, then it is not artificial intelligence. It is an artificial imitation of intelligence-looking output. Which is perfectly serviceable in many situations, but that's beside the point.
It's the same thing with your "human output" objection. If a human produces an intelligent answer to a question and a machine produces the same string of words, that does not prove that the same process occurred. A tape recorder can say "I understand calculus" until the power goes out, it still does not understand calculus. A book can contain a correct proof, but the book is not doing philosophy. A calculator can output the right answer but it does not understand the numbers.
Just because the output is correct does not mean that the same faculty is there. And that is pretty much the fundamental error.
Take YOLO for instance, it can take an image and name objects in that image and give a location of that object within the image.
A vision model taking an image and outputting "horse: bounding box here" does not mean that it sees a horse in the conscious perceptual sense. It maps pixel patterns to human-supplied labels according to its trained structure. The word "horse" means something to us. It does not mean "horse" to the model.
Cognition and intelligence are different things. Cognition requires intelligence, intelligence does not require cognition.
Woah, I thought I was the one making bold claims in here.
Your enormous claim I reject.
If by "intelligence" you only mean "given a problem, produce a correct solution", then yes, you can call a thermostat intelligent. Hell, you can call a mouse trap intelligent. But at that point, you have not defended AI, you have destroyed the concept of intelligence itself, reducing it to functional output. Again, that is the fundamental error.
If you define intelligence as: given a problem, the ability/capability to solve it correctly, (which is how it is defined when it comes to AI).
Really stretching the word "solve" here. Does a smoke detector "solve the problem of smoke detection" in any cognitive sense? I say no. What a smoke detector does is react according to its physical structure. The same way a calculator does not "solve arithmetic" in the sense of understanding mathematics, but rather produces outputs according to its design.
Again, correct output is not cognition. Correct output is not understanding. Correct output is not intelligence.
Which is why bringing in AGI doesn't help either.
AGI is what you seem to be arguing that the intelligence defined in AI is. One that has cognition and can then start solving other problems, usually of its own volition i.e. if machine intelligence hits the singularity.
AGI is not what I secretly mean by intelligence. AGI is just the more ambitious version of the same conceptual confusion underlying "AI".
What I am saying is that current so-called "AI" is not intelligence at all. Not "weak" intelligence, not "narrow" intelligence, not "baby" intelligence, not "crippled" intelligence, not "low" intelligence. Not intelligence. It is machinery producing outputs.
You do seem to be saying there are some magic to humans that isn't physical, you do not feel or know when and what each individual neuron is firing (the biological switching system) which leads to the perceptual awareness, needs, values, agency, and conceptual cognition that you have.
What kind of Franz Kafka nonsense is this. I'm explicitly denying magic, hell I'm even denying something as pedestrian as a soul.
Humans are living conscious organisms, digital computers are physical switching systems whose symbols only mean anything to the humans interpreting them.
Calling neurons a biological switching system does not make brains and digital computers equivalent, it's more of a metaphor than an argument. A living brain is an organ of a conscious organism, a transistor circuit is not.
The fact that I do not introspect individual neuron firings doesn't prove anything either. I also do not introspect my liver cells, but that does not mean digestion is fake or that a computer simulation of digestion digests food.
The issue is not whether humans are physical (they are) but whether the physical system in question instantiates awareness, perception, conceptual meaning, judgment, valuation, and volitional focus. As I said in the OP, humans do. Digital computers do not.
AI, no, AGI would be the same as humans I guess, it'll evolve its meaning/concepts/validation from interactions with reality, it won't be born sentient, but with enough interactions will evolve/learn that it is.
Rocks interact with reality. Thermostats interact with reality. Doesn't establish awareness or concept formation.
You'd still need to explain how there is a subject to whom anything means anything, and until that is explained, calling these systems "AI" is and remains unjustified.
 
Cunt, let me dream Revolt.webp
 
At some point, mimicry that is indistinguishable from the genuine article becomes a distinction without a difference. That being said, I've gone pretty deep down the rabbit hole with different LLMs, and I personally agree with you when you say, "...humans are indeed living conscious organisms with perceptual awareness, needs, values, agency, and conceptual cognition." and that the current systems lack all of those qualities, as well as others that we consider hallmarks of sentience.

The day will probably come in the not too distant future when those lines have been slowly eroded over time and then there will be a reason for actual metaphysical debate about whether or not we're just dealing with a very advanced piece of software or if it has become something more than that.
 
At some point, mimicry that is indistinguishable from the genuine article becomes a distinction without a difference.
No.
That is the entire error.
Indistinguishable to whom, by what means, and with what respect to what standard?
If you mean "indistinguishable by causal external behavior", then absolutely not. That only proves that the imitation is convincing, but not that the imitation has become the imitated thing.
A counterfeit medicine that perfectly imitates the packaging, smell, taste, and texture of real medicine is still not real medicine if it lacks the active ingredient. A wax figure that looks exactly like a man is still not alive.

If "indistinguishable" means "indistinguishable in every respect, including awareness, perception, conceptual cognition, valuation, agency, and understanding", then that's just begging the question. Defining the mimic as possessing the very thing that's under dispute.
If "indistinguishable" only means "its verbal behavior bamboozles humans" then that's not intelligence, but successful imitation.
The day will probably come in the not too distant future when those lines have been slowly eroded over time and then there will be a reason for actual metaphysical debate about whether or not we're just dealing with a very advanced piece of software or if it has become something more than that.
The line you speak of is categorical.
Either there is a subject to whom the symbols mean something or there is not. Either there is awareness or there is not. Either there is conceptual cognition or there is not.
More fluent output does not gradually become awareness. More complicated software does not gradually become a self.
The only thing that's being eroded here is human epistemic discipline. People see increasingly persuasive language/image/video output and slowly lower their standards for what counts as intelligence. Clearly this is a case of humans becoming easier to fool, not a case of the machine becoming a mind.
If one day someone can demonstrate actual awareness, perception, concept formation, valuation, agency, and understanding in an artificial system, that's fine. If that system happens to be a computer, then per what I said in the OP, my argument is refuted. Otherwise, it would be a different discussion. However, mimicry becoming convincing is just a more polished version of the same category error.
 
Exactly. Now consider what that means.
If it is not known how intelligence emerges, then why the hell are people so comfortable calling these systems "artificial intelligence"?
If you admit that we do not know what it takes for a physical system to become aware, then the responsible conclusion is not "therefore maybe this is intelligence". The proper move is to stop pretending that the "intelligence" label has been earned.

Maybe one day someone can prove that some artificial system has genuine awareness and understanding, in which case they better show proof. Until then, calling current statistical text engines "AI" is a false category assignment.
Nigger it is you that needs to prove that it cannot be done as it is you who have claimed that "Neither computer software not computer hardware can ever, not even in trillion years, possibly instantiate AI" and all your arguments are frankly retarded as might as well be applied to human neurons. "The neurons do not understand why they fire therefore humans are not intelligent". Intelligence by necessity needs to be built up from non-intelligent parts, assuming it's physicality as such moronic reductio ad absurdum "it is le hecking matrix multiplication", "it is just le hecking electricty" is retarded.

I see no reason why inteligence is bound to only one specific representation as it seems to be imaterial. Immaterial things such as concepts exists regardless if they are represented by marks on stone wall or by magnetic polarisation of hardrive as such i see no reason why it would not be possible to replace human neurons with electrical switches unless soul exists, and if that's possible i see no reason why AI cannot exists.
 
Well, then my point is conceded. Mimicry of intelligence is not intelligence.
I could just switch the terms in your argument to be about humans, and it would still hold up. For all we know human intelligence and free will is just some kind of experiential illusion for brain processes that happen without our control. This is a large part of the problem with, and why current AI discourse is so boring, it starts from a set of assumptions based on pure human exceptionalist bellyfeels.
 
I think your disagreement is almost entirely contingent on defining "intelligence" so thinly that it stops meaning intelligence.
Its a valid precise definition that has been used, it is something that is measurable. Yours is so broad you might have well just made the post "WHY ARE THEY CALLED STICKS, BUT WHEN I TOUCH OTHER OBJECTS WITH THEM, THEY DO NOT BIND? WTF THEY SHOULD BE CALLED BROWN LONG OBJECTS DETACHED FROM TREES"
A vision model taking an image and outputting "horse: bounding box here" does not mean that it sees a horse in the conscious perceptual sense. It maps pixel patterns to human-supplied labels according to its trained structure. The word "horse" means something to us. It does not mean "horse" to the model.
Humans see the horse like that, but do other horses? Or any other animals? Are they not intelligent because of it? What about bees landing on plants? I doubt brains that size conceptualise much, but they solve a problem, what use does the broad definition of intelligence have here?
Woah, I thought I was the one making bold claims in here.
Your enormous claim I reject.
If by "intelligence" you only mean "given a problem, produce a correct solution", then yes, you can call a thermostat intelligent. Hell, you can call a mouse trap intelligent. But at that point, you have not defended AI, you have destroyed the concept of intelligence itself, reducing it to functional output. Again, that is the fundamental error.
Not destroyed the concept, just because theres no value in discussing objects of infinitesimal intelligence doesn't destroy it. Again its something that is measurable cardinally, rather than ordinally, which is far more useful practically.

Really stretching the word "solve" here. Does a smoke detector "solve the problem of smoke detection" in any cognitive sense? I say no. What a smoke detector does is react according to its physical structure. The same way a calculator does not "solve arithmetic" in the sense of understanding mathematics, but rather produces outputs according to its design.
Again, correct output is not cognition. Correct output is not understanding. Correct output is not intelligence.
Which is why bringing in AGI doesn't help either.
You can also reduce humans to just reactions, all your thoughts are reactions to your brain reacting to the passage of time, compounded with previously stored data (all images/sounds/smells of horses you 'conceptualise' are argubly just recall) and new information about your environment, those circuits fire to produce all the thoughts and concepts that appear in your head, i.e you create a unicorn by adding horns, which may not even be animal horns, you might 'create' a horn by recalling a triangle and sticking it on to a horse's head.

AGI is not what I secretly mean by intelligence. AGI is just the more ambitious version of the same conceptual confusion underlying "AI".
What I am saying is that current so-called "AI" is not intelligence at all. Not "weak" intelligence, not "narrow" intelligence, not "baby" intelligence, not "crippled" intelligence, not "low" intelligence. Not intelligence. It is machinery producing outputs.
Ok fair, then you mean post-AGI, since they're expecting that when we hit AGI, it'll just be driven by itself on a cycle to the singularity, at that point it will have to be cognitive, or develop cognition because it won't hit the singularity being driven by humans.

What kind of Franz Kafka nonsense is this. I'm explicitly denying magic, hell I'm even denying something as pedestrian as a soul.
Humans are living conscious organisms, digital computers are physical switching systems whose symbols only mean anything to the humans interpreting them.
You're saying not magic, but you're also saying something exists internally that isn't a complex physical switching system but you do not even try to define it, you are just saying it is.
Calling neurons a biological switching system does not make brains and digital computers equivalent, it's more of a metaphor than an argument.
neurons are a very complex hierarchical biological switching system (made up of many systems), digital computers are simple in comparison.
A living brain is an organ of a conscious organism, a transistor circuit is not.
And a CPU is an component of a computer. Glad we cleared that up.
The fact that I do not introspect individual neuron firings doesn't prove anything either. I also do not introspect my liver cells, but that does not mean digestion is fake or that a computer simulation of digestion digests food.
what about an artificial chamber that turns food into energy/nutrition, would you say that digests?
The issue is not whether humans are physical (they are) but whether the physical system in question instantiates awareness, perception, conceptual meaning, judgment, valuation, and volitional focus. As I said in the OP, humans do. Digital computers do not.
you're very focused on digital. Encoding isn't relevant to the possibility, just the effort required.
 
"The neurons do not understand why they fire therefore humans are not intelligent"
Jesus Christ, that is a bad parts-to-whole caricature.
I am not saying "the individual components are unintelligent, therefore the whole cannot be intelligent". Obviously, living organisms are built from parts that are not individually conscious. My claim is about the kind of whole that is being produced.
A human being is not a pile of neurons. A human being is a living conscious organism. The brain is one organ of that organism. Neurons are not individually intelligent, but they are a load-bearing part of a biological system that, as a whole, perceives, acts, values, focuses, forms concepts, judges, and understands.
A digital computer is just not that kind of whole. It is a formal switching system whose "symbols", "inputs", "outputs", "programs", and "information" only have meaning relative to conscious beings interpreting them.
That is the distinction you seemingly refuse to address.
Intelligence by necessity needs to be built up from non-intelligent parts, assuming it's physicality as such
Sure. However, that does not mean any arrangement of non-intelligent parts can instantiate intelligence. You still have to explain why this arrangement (digital switches executing formal operations over externally interpreted symbols) produces awareness or understanding.
On top of that, you're also smuggling in substrate independence without proving it.
I see no reason why inteligence is bound to only one specific representation
"I see no reason why not" simply isn't an argument. You need to show that intelligence is the sort of thing that can be instantiated by any sufficiently similar formal structure (in which case you'd refute my argument by proving the possibility) regardless of the nature of the underlying entity.
Immaterial things such as concepts
That is just very badly confused, sorry. Concepts are not free-floating magical essences that exist inside stone tablets, hard drives, or magnetic polarizations. Markings on a wall can represent a concept to a mind, and magnetic states on a hard drive can encode a concept for a mind, but the representation is not the concept.
It's the tape recorder issue again, really. You're confusing representation and possession.
A concept exists as a cognitive integration by a conscious subject. It can be externally represented in symbols, marks, sounds, bits, or magnetic states, but those representations are not themselves conceptual awareness. The concept does not exist in the stone or the hard drive as a concept. It exists in relation to a conscious mind capable of grasping what the representation means. Without a mind, there's only scratches in stone or physical states in matter.
i see no reason why it would not be possible to replace human neurons with electrical switches unless soul exists
No, the options are not "soul or digital switchboard".
Consciousness can be natural and biological without being reducible to formal digital computation. Rejecting computational reductionism does not commit me to supernaturalism.
If you want to argue that neurons can be replaced by electrical switches while preserving consciousness, prove that, don't just assert it. Show how awareness is preserved, show how meaning exists for the system, show how concepts are formed, show how truths are validated, show how there is a subject to whom anything appears.
Until then, you're just repeating the notion that maybe computation somehow becomes cognition if it's arranged cleverly enough.



Which is fine, but it's a little late to change the name.
Eh. If "literally" can suddenly mean "figuratively" and if "gay" suddenly stops meaning "joyous" and if "mentally ill" can be renamed as "transsexual", there is no principled reason why this can't change as well. Defeatism is kinda cringe!



I could just switch the terms in your argument to be about humans, and it would still hold up. For all we know human intelligence and free will is just some kind of experiential illusion for brain processes that happen without our control. This is a large part of the problem with, and why current AI discourse is so boring, it starts from a set of assumptions based on pure human exceptionalist bellyfeels.
Big derailing of the topic, so I'll address it only in brief.
Your position is self-undermining.
If human intelligence, free will, and conscious agency are just illusions, then you have attacked the possibility of cognition as such. That means burning down the standards by which any claim, including yours, could be assessed.
If human reasoning is merely an uncontrolled experiential illusion, then your argument is also just an uncontrolled experiential illusion. At that point, why should I or anyone else treat it as true, false, valid, invalid, relevant, or irrelevant?
You simply can't use cognition to argue that cognition is fake and then expect that conclusion to retain cognitive authority.
The same way you can't just swap "human" and "computer" in my argument and preserve the point.

Humans are the directly known case of intelligence. We perceive, think, judge, choose, form concepts, make mistakes, correct them, and grasp meanings. You can try to explain that biologically, deterministically, spiritually, or whatever else, but the phenomenon that is being explained is not optional.
Computers are not another known case of intelligence. They are artifacts whose inputs, outputs, symbols, labels, purposes, and meanings are supplied and interpreted by human beings.
Call it bellyfeels if you want, but I'm just refusing to erase the distinction between a conscious subject and a tool that's producing externally interpreted outputs.
If you want to deny human cognition or free will, I'm happy to have that (different) discussion, but not here in this thread. In any case, it does nothing to justify calling statistical text engines "artificial intelligence". At best, you're replacing "AI is intelligent" with "maybe nothing is intelligent", and that's straight up epistemic vandalism.



Its a valid precise definition that has been used, it is something that is measurable. Yours is so broad you might have well just made the post "WHY ARE THEY CALLED STICKS, BUT WHEN I TOUCH OTHER OBJECTS WITH THEM, THEY DO NOT BIND? WTF THEY SHOULD BE CALLED BROWN LONG OBJECTS DETACHED FROM TREES
You are using "intelligence" to mean something like measurable problem-solving output.
I am using "intelligence" to mean an actual cognitive faculty.
Those are not the same thing.
If engineers want to use "intelligence" as a shorthand for "system produces useful/correct output on some task", fine, but then they're using the word in a technical/metaphorical/deflated sense. That does not mean the system genuinely possesses intelligence.
Your definition is "precise" only because you have removed almost everything that makes intelligence intelligence. To the point a mouse trap becomes intelligent.
Not destroyed the concept, just because theres no value in discussing objects of infinitesimal intelligence doesn't destroy it. Again its something that is measurable cardinally, rather than ordinally, which is far more useful practically.
That is exactly the problem, however. You are saving the word by emptying it. Once a mouse trap has intelligence, "intelligence" no longer identifies cognition. All it identifies is successful functional output.
It may be measurable, but it is certainly not the concept I am talking about.
A ruler can measure length, but that does not mean that every measurable quantity is length. A benchmark can measure output-performance, but that does not mean output-performance is intelligence.
Humans see the horse like that, but do other horses? Or any other animals? Are they not intelligent because of it? What about bees landing on plants? I doubt brains that size conceptualise much, but they solve a problem, what use does the broad definition of intelligence have here?
I'm not super familiar with animal intelligence, but I can confidently say that horses and bees do not need to conceptualize "horse" the way humans do in order to possess animal cognition. What I have been describing when I mentioned conceptual cognition is human intelligence. Animal awareness is not human conceptual thought, but animals are still living, perceiving, goal-directed organisms that act in the world for their own survival.
Now, a bee landing on a flower is not "intelligent" because it produced the correct output in a formal input-output table. The bee is a living organism with perception, action, biological needs, and goal-directed behavior.
That is already categorically different from a computer that's mapping pixels to labels. A vision model outputting "horse" is not seeing a horse. It is mapping pixel patterns to labels supplied by humans. The label "horse" means something to us. It does not mean "horse" to the model.
Again, it needs to be stressed, a living organism perceiving and acting in reality and a machine producing externally interpreted outputs are not the same.
You can also reduce humans to just reactions, all your thoughts are reactions to your brain reacting to the passage of time, compounded with previously stored data (all images/sounds/smells of horses you 'conceptualise' are argubly just recall) and new information about your environment, those circuits fire to produce all the thoughts and concepts that appear in your head, i.e you create a unicorn by adding horns, which may not even be animal horns, you might 'create' a horn by recalling a triangle and sticking it on to a horse's head.
You're really just doing the same thing as someone saying "digestion is just molecules moving around". I mean, sure, digestion does involve that. But not every molecular process is digestion, and a computer simulation of digestion does not digest food. Same with thought.
Thought involves physical brain activity. It does not follow that any sufficiently complicated switching system thinks.
Plus, although that's another detour, concept formation is not mere image recall. When a person forms the concept "horse", he is not merely storing a slideshow of horse images. A concept integrates units according to distinguishing characteristics. That is why a person can recognize new horses he has never seen before, distinguish horses from cats, imagine a unicorn, correct mistaken classifications, and understand that an image, a sculpture, a word, and an actual animal are not the same kind of thing.
Calling all of that "stored data plus reactions" explains nothing, it's just redescribing cognition in flattened mechanical language.
You're saying not magic, but you're also saying something exists internally that isn't a complex physical switching system
God, no. The options are not "humans are magic" and "humans are basically digital computers".
Humans are living conscious organisms. Digital computers are artifacts made of formal switching systems. Calling neurons "biological switches" does not get rid of the difference between a conscious organism and a computer. Metaphor it is, but not equivalence.
A liver and a chemical vat may both involve chemical reactions. It does not follow that every chemical vat is a liver.
And a CPU is an component of a computer. Glad we cleared that up.
The same way a brain and a CPU may both involve electrical activity. It does not follow that every CPU is a brain.
A bird and an airplane both fly. It does not follow that a jet engine is a muscle.
what about an artificial chamber that turns food into energy/nutrition, would you say that digests?
If it actually chemically breaks down food in the relevant way, you could call that artificial digestion in a functional biochemical sense.
That point hurts your argument though.
A computer simulation of digestion still would not digest food. Likewise, an artificial intelligence would have to actually instantiate intelligence, not merely simulate intelligence-looking outputs. Which is my whole point.
Ok fair, then you mean post-AGI, since they're expecting that when we hit AGI, it'll just be driven by itself on a cycle to the singularity, at that point it will have to be cognitive, or develop cognition because it won't hit the singularity being driven by humans.
Please miss me with speculative labels, hit me with arguments instead. Instead of asserting and speculating, show how such a thing becomes cognitive if you can. Show how awareness appears, how symbols become meaningful to the system. Show how there is a subject to whom anything matters.
Until then, it really is no better than saying "eventually the output-machine will become a mind somehow"
you're very focused on digital.
Indeed, because that is what current """"AI"""" is.
If you want to talk about artificial biological organisms, analog systems, synthetic brains, or some other hypothetical future entity, that is a different discussion. It certainly is not a defense of calling current LLMs, visual classifiers, video game NPC behavior trees, or statistical text engines "AI".
I quite like subject matter delimiters, they help mitigate overreach and derailing.
Encoding isn't relevant to the possibility, just the effort required.
Oh, but that is another really big assertion. Encoding is absolutely relevant when the question is whether symbols mean anything to the system itself or not.
Marks in a book can encode ideas, pixel patterns can encode an image, magnetic states on a drive can encode text, but encoding is not understanding. A symbol does not become meaningful merely because it is stored somewhere. It is meaningful to a mind that grasps what it refers to.
And that is the central issue you're evading.

Current "AI" systems do not possess intelligence. They produce outputs that many humans interpret as intelligent. If your definition of intelligence is so thin that it includes thermostats and mouse traps, then sure, you can call them intelligent. But then the word is decoupled from cognition. Conceptual vandalism.
 
Jesus Christ, that is a bad parts-to-whole caricature.
I am not saying "the individual components are unintelligent, therefore the whole cannot be intelligent". Obviously, living organisms are built from parts that are not individually conscious. My claim is about the kind of whole that is being produced.
A human being is not a pile of neurons. A human being is a living conscious organism. The brain is one organ of that organism. Neurons are not individually intelligent, but they are a load-bearing part of a biological system that, as a whole, perceives, acts, values, focuses, forms concepts, judges, and understands.
A digital computer is just not that kind of whole. It is a formal switching system whose "symbols", "inputs", "outputs", "programs", and "information" only have meaning relative to conscious beings interpreting them.
That is the distinction you seemingly refuse to address.
Irrelevant, as intelligence is not meaning; it exists regardless of there being any other intelligence. How tf do you think it is even remotely relevant is beyond me.
Sure. However, that does not mean any arrangement of non-intelligent parts can instantiate intelligence. You still have to explain why this arrangement (digital switches executing formal operations over externally interpreted symbols) produces awareness or understanding.
On top of that, you're also smuggling in substrate independence without proving it.
Not my claim. You have not proven that there is not arrangement that is.
"I see no reason why not" simply isn't an argument. You need to show that intelligence is the sort of thing that can be instantiated by any sufficiently similar formal structure (in which case you'd refute my argument by proving the possibility) regardless of the nature of the underlying entity.
I am not claiming that it is possible i am claiming that you have not proven that it is impossible.
That is just very badly confused, sorry. Concepts are not free-floating magical essences that exist inside stone tablets, hard drives, or magnetic polarizations. Markings on a wall can represent a concept to a mind, and magnetic states on a hard drive can encode a concept for a mind, but the representation is not the concept.
It's the tape recorder issue again, really. You're confusing representation and possession.
A concept exists as a cognitive integration by a conscious subject. It can be externally represented in symbols, marks, sounds, bits, or magnetic states, but those representations are not themselves conceptual awareness. The concept does not exist in the stone or the hard drive as a concept. It exists in relation to a conscious mind capable of grasping what the representation means. Without a mind, there's only scratches in stone or physical states in matter.
I gave concept as a example of something imaterial, inteligence is not a concept yet is is imaterial - as despite my neurons constantly being replaced i am still alive. Clearly then existence of me is not dependent on some specific physical representation and so it seems any other inteligence and if thats the case then i see no reason why inteligence cannot be represented as digital circuit.
No, the options are not "soul or digital switchboard".
Consciousness can be natural and biological without being reducible to formal digital computation. Rejecting computational reductionism does not commit me to supernaturalism.
If you want to argue that neurons can be replaced by electrical switches while preserving consciousness, prove that, don't just assert it. Show how awareness is preserved, show how meaning exists for the system, show how concepts are formed, show how truths are validated, show how there is a subject to whom anything appears.
Until then, you're just repeating the notion that maybe computation somehow becomes cognition if it's arranged cleverly enough.
Burden of proof that something is impossible is on you as you are the claimant. I do not know if it is possible or not, infact i think that there is no human that does. A claim that something is impossible requires proof which you have failed to provide.
"No one have landed on the Moon therefore it is not possible" is not valid methodology but pure retardation.
 
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