Comicsgate Hangers-On and Drama Whores - A thread about some guy who's mad about Star Wars and the neckbeards obsessively stalking him

[instythot]

Nope, I'm as consistent as can be. I don't see a lot of humor in people running the SJW playbook like seasoned pros, but I'll admit that IS funny watching them fail while denying it. Besides, "Are you not entertained?"

I don't know if recognizing that adults spending years in -gate movements over products aimed at children is objectively funny necessarily means someone is "running the SJW playbook" , chief

 

[The Wisdom of Bassets]

I don't know if recognizing that adults spending years in -gate movements over products aimed at children is objectively funny necessarily means someone is "running the SJW playbook" , chief

Well Lieutenant, you might want to look further than the nose on your face and see the 7 figures worth of business that a group of ass blasted little cupcakes are doing their best to ignore when talking about 'kids books.' It's someone...many someone's incomes, Sparky. And people quite literally using the same actions, arguments and techniques to fuck with that tends to get people a bit more serious about things whether here or elsewhere.

And if that bothers you Hoss, leave another comment with an emoji so all your friends can see how you schooled me good. Anything to keep the stats up and all.

 

[KingofNothing]

Nope, I'm as consistent as can be. I don't see a lot of humor in people running the SJW playbook like seasoned pros, but I'll admit that IS funny watching them fail while denying it. Besides, "Are you not entertained?"

Dude, seriously. Where are you getting "SJW playbook" shit from people saying internet slapfights while presenting yourself as a business is dumb? Because it is dumb. Regular people look at this from outside and think it's just a bunch of nerds acting like tards.

 

[The Wisdom of Bassets]

Dude, seriously. Where are you getting "SJW playbook" shit from people saying internet slapfights while presenting yourself as a business is dumb? Because it is dumb. Regular people look at this from outside and think it's just a bunch of nerds acting like tards.

"Dude" Go back and read the thread before asking questions you already have the answers to.

 

[KingofNothing]

"Dude" Go back and read the thread before asking questions you already have the answers to.

Ok buddy, have fun being weirdly defensive of EVS getting any flak.

 

[The Wisdom of Bassets]

Ok buddy, have fun being weirdly defensive of EVS getting any flak.

You too!

 

[instythot]

Well Lieutenant, you might want to look further than the nose on your face and see the 7 figures worth of business that a group of ass blasted little cupcakes are doing their best to ignore when talking about 'kids books.' It's someone...many someone's incomes, Sparky. And people quite literally using the same actions, arguments and techniques to fuck with that tends to get people a bit more serious about things whether here or elsewhere.

And if that bothers you Hoss, leave another comment with an emoji so all your friends can see how you schooled me good. Anything to keep the stats up and all.

I'm not sure if you grasp this, champ, but a thing can both make a bit of money and also be incredibly funny while not intending to do so.

Additionally, sailor, I suspect that many of us would find very little to laugh at in the situation if a bunch of middle aged men weren't fighting like children all across the various social medias over funnybooks about men in tights and capes for kids

 

[The Wisdom of Bassets]

I'm not sure if you grasp this, champ, but a thing can both make a bit of money and also be incredibly funny while not intending to do so.

Additionally, sailor, I suspect that many of us would find very little to laugh at in the situation if a bunch of middle aged men weren't fighting like children all across the various social medias over funnybooks about men in tights and capes for kids

As opposed to what exactly, Juinor? Standing there and letting a crowd of SJWs and their wannabee clones spreading crap that has a very real impact on their business?

Bitch about @FROG's ego or Zak's OCD, TUG's whatever he's accused of this week here, or whatever all you want. Thats all good. But going out and spreading shit that mirrors Kick Vic/Renfamous is gonna get some blowback. You can like it, agree, or not.

 

[instythot]

As opposed to what exactly, Juinor? Standing there and letting a crowd of SJWs and their wannabee clones spreading crap that has a very real impact on their business?

Bitch about @FROG's ego or Zak's OCD, TUG's whatever he's accused of this week here, or whatever all you want. Thats all good. But going out and spreading shit that mirrors Kick Vic/Renfamous is gonna get some blowback. You can like it, agree, or not.

So... you are putting forward that there is no alternative for the middle aged men in comicsgate but to act like bickering and unsupervised children on Twitter because a fat blue haired accountant is mad at them? Is that your final authoritative word on comicsgate, cupcake?

 

[The Wisdom of Bassets]

So... you are putting forward that there is no alternative for the middle aged men in comicsgate but to act like bickering and unsupervised children on Twitter because a fat blue haired accountant is mad at them? Is that your final authoritative word on comicsgate, cupcake?

No woogums. I'll have plenty more as I see something worth commenting on. But for now I'll leave you with these. Try addressing some of my points instead of the usual SJWish goalpost relocation.

I enjoy these tender moments we share.

 

[instythot]

No woogums. I'll have plenty more as I see something worth commenting on. But for now I'll leave you with these. Try addressing some of my points instead of the usual SJWish goalpost relocation.

I enjoy these tender moments we share.

I might have misjudged you. With this flawless ability to identify and call out SJWs, you're going to save the West. By posting on Kiwi Farms. In a containment thread

 

[jspit]

I see civility and respect on most other threads here. On this one I see a lot of the same idiocy that Kic Vic does/says. I see some people completely ignoring reality and having tantrums when people present facts. Am I surprised by that? Very much so. Will I treat them accordingly? Very much so.

Could you be, projecting?

i agree, no matter which of the argument one is on it’s all in good fun here. It’s not that big of a deal, or it shouldn’t be anyway. I can’t speak for the bullshit that goes on outside this forum though...

Pretty much. I don't even wish ill on the cows. They are after all, born that way.

Neat! Looks like a Brian Bolland cover.

Y'know, as much as he's full of shit and his own worst enemy, at least Frog's never stopped drawing comics. I gotta give him that.

 

[Mister Dongs]

You think people want to argue about ideology. That may have mattered up to about a year ago, but now the market has changed. Disruptors need to address a different set of concerns.

CG is a brand, it's following a product adoption arc. Early innovators were taking risks and proving the viability of the brand, now they are in an Early Adopter stage

Okay, the issue with this premise is that Comicsgate, as taken from the original thesis of YBZ and adapted into a "brand" largely by Ethan van Sciver, is not the product. What the comic books creators are selling - comics - is the product. Not only does it provide content creators with incentive, if not livelihood, just as importantly it serves as a demonstrable proof of a superior alternative to the mainstream model where consumers and creators are subject to radical ideologue gatekeepers who have wormed their way into middlemen positions. As EVS and Zack will both tell you, the lessons that Gamergate taught everyone is that outrage and online criticism without meaningful action has a limited shelflife and accomplishes little.

CG, at its essence, is only meaningful if it furthers the validity of that proof. EVS, in service towards that goal and making that claim true blasted out a lot of agitprop and simplified Zack's thesis to the level of "IF YOU HATE SJWS TWEET #COMICSGATE LMAO BOTTOM TEXT STAY TUNED AND CHECK OUT THIS WEIRDO". And he totally succeeded in exploding CG as a "brand" and a "movement" (if not as an idea) and got a lot of creators and customers on board, but this has brought along a lot of problems as a result as well. Like a sizeable number of people who prioritize the free expression of their dumbass hot takes over abstract "valid business model" concerns like Doug TenNapel or Mike Miller. And other people who only consider Comicsgate as an flag for for autistic internet tribalists to rally behind bereft of any ideals or principles beyond the tribe, like WarCampaign. Of course, had Ethan (and other, less aware people like Yellowflash or TUC) not done this, "Comicsgate" might just be the ~1000 active members of YBZ and the original MSM comic critics still out there.
Good or bad, it is what it is.

With all that in mind, let's look at your Early Adopter stage required before it shifts into the expansion where Comicsgate is adopted by "pragmatists" - most of the CG "Early Adopters" meant to serve as advocates to pragmatists (as brand or business model) have either been driven out or have voluntarily left. Mainstream pros who have gone indie like Mike Deodato or people who were sympathetic with CG's ideals like Sean Gordon Murphy or Mike Brubaker have looked at the vicious infighting and have decided that "being Comicsgate" is not worth the price. This is to say nothing about the countless small indies who signed up for "the movement" only to get patrolled by a retarded internet tribunal police force and wound up with harassment on top of obscurity for their trouble.

There are no future comic creators of EVS or even Malin's stature leaving the mainstream model and adopting the Comicsgate "brand".
At best, there might be another Youtuber of TUG's stature going CG. But there's a large gulf in between those two things.

 

[Rupin]

Okay, the issue with this premise is that Comicsgate, as taken from the original thesis of YBZ and adapted into a "brand" largely by Ethan van Sciver, is not the product. What the comic books creators are selling - comics - is the product. Not only does it provide content creators with incentive, if not livelihood, just as importantly it serves as a demonstrable proof of a superior alternative to the mainstream model where consumers and creators are subject to radical ideologue gatekeepers who have wormed their way into middlemen positions. As EVS and Zack will both tell you, the lessons that Gamergate taught everyone is that outrage and online criticism without meaningful action has a limited shelflife and accomplishes little.

CG, at its essence, is only meaningful if it furthers the validity of that proof. EVS, in service towards that goal and making that claim true blasted out a lot of agitprop and simplified Zack's thesis to the level of "IF YOU HATE SJWS TWEET #COMICSGATE LMAO BOTTOM TEXT STAY TUNED AND CHECK OUT THIS WEIRDO". And he totally succeeded in exploding CG as a "brand" and a "movement" (if not as an idea) and got a lot of creators and customers on board, but this has brought along a lot of problems as a result as well. Like a sizeable number of people who prioritize the free expression of their dumbass hot takes over abstract "valid business model" concerns like Doug TenNapel or Mike Miller. And other people who only consider Comicsgate as an flag for for autistic internet tribalists to rally behind bereft of any ideals or principles beyond the tribe, like WarCampaign. Of course, had Ethan (and other, less aware people like Yellowflash or TUC) not done this, "Comicsgate" might just be the ~1000 active members of YBZ and the original MSM comic critics still out there.
Good or bad, it is what it is.

With all that in mind, let's look at your Early Adopter stage required before it shifts into the expansion where Comicsgate is adopted by "pragmatists" - most of the CG "Early Adopters" meant to serve as advocates to pragmatists (as brand or business model) have either been driven out or have voluntarily left. Mainstream pros who have gone indie like Mike Deodato or people who were sympathetic with CG's ideals like Sean Gordon Murphy or Mike Brubaker have looked at the vicious infighting and have decided that "being Comicsgate" is not worth the price. This is to say nothing about the countless small indies who signed up for "the movement" only to get patrolled by a exceptional internet tribunal police force and wound up with harassment on top of obscurity for their trouble.

There are no future comic creators of EVS or even Malin's stature leaving the mainstream model and adopting the Comicsgate "brand".
At best, there might be another Youtuber of TUG's stature going CG. But there's a large gulf in between those two things.

I liked CG when it was about shitting on SJWs with books that normal people would want to read instead of splintering off into groups and fighting with each other. Now I feel like it’s even harder for a new person who doesn’t follow leftist ideaology to get his work out there because there is gatekeeping on both sides. Like, if you aren’t out there causing drama or have a big social media presence, then it doesn’t matter how talented you are your books will be lucky if they even hit their funding goal.

 

[jspit]

I liked CG when it was about shitting on SJWs with books that normal people would want to read instead of splintering off into groups and fighting with each other. Now I feel like it’s even harder for a new person who doesn’t follow leftist ideaology to get his work out there because there is gatekeeping on both sides. Like, if you aren’t out there causing drama or have a big social media presence, then it doesn’t matter how talented you are your books will be lucky if they even hit their funding goal.

That was inevitable the moment money entered the picture. People were going to fight. Didn't help that allot of those people were comic pros.

 

[5t3n0g0ph3r]

Okay, the issue with this premise is that Comicsgate, as taken from the original thesis of YBZ and adapted into a "brand" largely by Ethan van Sciver, is not the product. What the comic books creators are selling - comics - is the product. Not only does it provide content creators with incentive, if not livelihood, just as importantly it serves as a demonstrable proof of a superior alternative to the mainstream model where consumers and creators are subject to radical ideologue gatekeepers who have wormed their way into middlemen positions. As EVS and Zack will both tell you, the lessons that Gamergate taught everyone is that outrage and online criticism without meaningful action has a limited shelflife and accomplishes little.

CG, at its essence, is only meaningful if it furthers the validity of that proof. EVS, in service towards that goal and making that claim true blasted out a lot of agitprop and simplified Zack's thesis to the level of "IF YOU HATE SJWS TWEET #COMICSGATE LMAO BOTTOM TEXT STAY TUNED AND CHECK OUT THIS WEIRDO". And he totally succeeded in exploding CG as a "brand" and a "movement" (if not as an idea) and got a lot of creators and customers on board, but this has brought along a lot of problems as a result as well. Like a sizeable number of people who prioritize the free expression of their dumbass hot takes over abstract "valid business model" concerns like Doug TenNapel or Mike Miller. And other people who only consider Comicsgate as an flag for for autistic internet tribalists to rally behind bereft of any ideals or principles beyond the tribe, like WarCampaign. Of course, had Ethan (and other, less aware people like Yellowflash or TUC) not done this, "Comicsgate" might just be the ~1000 active members of YBZ and the original MSM comic critics still out there.
Good or bad, it is what it is.

With all that in mind, let's look at your Early Adopter stage required before it shifts into the expansion where Comicsgate is adopted by "pragmatists" - most of the CG "Early Adopters" meant to serve as advocates to pragmatists (as brand or business model) have either been driven out or have voluntarily left. Mainstream pros who have gone indie like Mike Deodato or people who were sympathetic with CG's ideals like Sean Gordon Murphy or Mike Brubaker have looked at the vicious infighting and have decided that "being Comicsgate" is not worth the price. This is to say nothing about the countless small indies who signed up for "the movement" only to get patrolled by a exceptional internet tribunal police force and wound up with harassment on top of obscurity for their trouble.

There are no future comic creators of EVS or even Malin's stature leaving the mainstream model and adopting the Comicsgate "brand".
At best, there might be another Youtuber of TUG's stature going CG. But there's a large gulf in between those two things.

This was a very good post.
I agree that ComicsGate as a whole is stagnating and that's due to the infighting (predictably).
The minute drama is stirred for drama's sake is when people start to lose the bigger picture.
Instability turns potential newcomers (artists AND customers) off from the overall message.
It shows that the brand is not working and is rife with hypocrisy.
I hoped that a viable brand would come along and rise to be competitive to the Big Two, but that might be a pipe dream.

 

[Mister Dongs]

This was a very good post.
I agree that ComicsGate as a whole is stagnating and that's due to the infighting (predictably).
The minute drama is stirred for drama's sake is when people start to lose the bigger picture.
Instability turns potential newcomers (artists AND customers) off from the overall message.
It shows that the brand is not working and is rife with hypocrisy.
I hoped that a viable brand would come along and rise to be competitive to the Big Two, but that might be a pipe dream.

The thing is, CG as a business model as developed by EVS is actually so genius I don't think even he fully appreciates it. It's like an advanced idea of the basic idea of comic crowdfunding. Using the CG model, you use online platforms to provide free content and develop an online viewership/community to help crowdfund your product, cultivating a customer base like your own personal fief. Then you network with other people using the Comicsgate model and have developed their own fiefs to collectively crowdfund and advertise your product far more then your own base could do on its own. A crowdsource of crowdsourcing communities. You don't even have to produce comics to be considered a valuable part of this system, as people like Yellowflash, Nerdette, Cecil, etc show.

The major problems facing this as I see it are:

1) A lot of the best comic creators are terrible Youtube entertainers. This is mostly a result of being stuck in a basement bent over a drawing table for long hours every day for decades, resulting in social cripples usually. Especially if they're disinclined to polish their content. This results in shit like incredible art on Friday Night Auction going for pennies on the dollar while TUG sells some tracing he didn't even make of his oc donut steel character over a Berserk splash to "own renfamous and da sjws"
2) Some of the organized "consumer rights groups" operate under the idea that the "Comicsgate brand" is a zero-sum game of customer dollars, and thus any "adjacent" or "friendly" people who fail to show proper comittment and loyalty to "CG" as taking Comicsgate funds from CG projects where the creator has shown suitable loyalty. With themselves as the "consumer revolutionary vanguard", to paraphrase Lenin. But since the model depends on having access as many crowdsourcing communities as possible, this is actively destroying CG as applicable business model in practice.
I blame Ethan for this for explaining to his more mongoloid followers with an analogy that "Comicsgate is a lifeboat in the Titanic of the comic book industry" and them taking this literally and chimping out when "CG-friendly people are eating the rations meant for Comicsgate"
3) Since EVS is picking up so much slack for both creators who can't entertain and entertainers who can't create appealing or quality comics, there's the real question of what this ramshackle "movement" he's whipped up is going to do when Ethan is unable to continue at some point for whatever reason. My guess is is that these communities will no longer have cause to come together and CG members will become indistinguishable from generic indie comic crowdfunds.
4) The people who have remained in Ethan's patronage are increasingly people who are able to capitalize on his glaring psychological insecurities and enrich themselves with his platform in place of others who could produce respectable content worthy of mainstream consideration. If not outright manipulating EVS into turning on said rivals.

 

[FROG]

Finally KiwiFarms is reading like KiwiFarms again.

Great posts.

 

[Ivan Shatov]

Where to even start...or rather end with this gibberish.

1) Since when was CG a brand (presumably of the commercial type) now? I thought it was a consumer movement? Wasn't that what TUG and others have been saying for months now? Was their some kind of internal memo approved by the Inner Party that dictated its a brand now?

2) Why is CG a brand? Who decided that or rather who gets to decide that?

CG is a brand. No one had to decide it was, the brand is the meaning people recognize in the name.

The brand happens to be growing along commercial lines, similar to the way 'open source' grew as a brand in the early 2000s. No one owns it, but products that claim it are associated with certain attributes in the minds of consumers. Red Hat had to be an open source company to reach it's customers, that brand is one of the principle reasons it was able to beat SCO.

3) Even if you removed all the exceptionalism and incompetence from CG right now (which won't happen), there is no way in hell it could become mainstream never mind even revitalize the comic book industry unless you think the rest of the comic book industry is going to completely disappear overnight.

4) CG hasn't innovated anything period. It's already been demonstrated that people could use gfm or the equivalent to finance the publication/circulation of some comics among loyal fans/patrons.

I'm not really sure what mainstream comics means anymore. It used to mean having a significant audience for mass market publications. Publishers seem to have a different concept these days, revolving around young adult fiction and graphic novels aimed at getting a Netflix deal.

I'm not sure that's where this is all headed. There's something novel about the way social media is being used to promote a set of titles and creative community. Hard to put into words, but Comicsgate has launched a lot of ships. Each one is a market experiment and we will see where they all get to.

5) "What should happen over the next 12 months is an overall increase in the number of titles available, higher dollar amounts associated with individual crowdfunding campaigns, an increase in the number of campaigns overall and a reduction in price at least for access to the higher tiers."

How? The only way this will happen is if CG gets lucky with more offers like Zach just got and/or actually increased the number of successful campaigns it's been running which, even though I haven't been in the loop that much with the comings and goings of your brand as of late, I know you guys have little to offer in the foreseeable future besides this and Rainbow Brute. That's it. That ain't much a brand.

Well, sure, I'd grant CG isn't much of a brand right now and nothing is for certain.

What I said is CG creators are following a predictable pattern for introducing products into the market, and they're engaging in a range of activities that can expand the brand. There's no guarantees all of them will work, but the ones that do should expand the market.

There's a lot to be said for making the right moves. The items you cite are what I expect happen as they reach new customers.

6) "So ideology doesn't matter anymore. You're just spitting into the wind, it's the smallest part of what motivates Early Adopters. They are looking for things that are new and to be recognized for knowing what it's all about. They don't care so much about SJWs and hashtags, they care about the success of a title and whether or not they understand what's happening with it. They are very receptive to stories about growth of a franchise and consider those stories strong indicators of what is to come next. Entry points into the franchise - where you can buy it, how much it costs, can I get other stuff to go with it, when is the next one coming out, who are the partners for this franchise - are huge motivators for this group of customers."

What franchise is CG growing/continuing besides Meyer's Jawbreakers (and Malin's Graveyard shift?)? Like really? Is there supposed to be a sequel to Cyberfrog and if so when? Who else in this "brand" or rather those that are supposedly part of the "brand" as opposed to those that left/were kicked out that's actually creating comic book franchises (i.e. sequels)?

And as for your talk of ideology not mattering get real. Allegiances certainly matter, lets not mince words about that. If you want to debate that that has nothing to do with ideology, fine. I might concede that, but every damn person here knows that the petty tribalistic allegiances going on either in your "brand" or in mainstream comics is screwing both of you.

Seriously, there was a period where ideological arguments could damage the brand. We're past that, the key saboteurs have said all those things and lost. Shitposters on Twitter don't get much attention anymore. Mike and Doug argued ideology and turned off most of their audience. Professionals at the Big 2 don't talk shit anymore, their ships have some cracks in the hulls.

CG is a brand. You fight brands with publicity.

Publicity isn't a good medium for detailed appeals to conscience, but it's great for creating disgust. I spelled out a number of tactics that could be more effective.

Okay, the issue with this premise is that Comicsgate, as taken from the original thesis of YBZ and adapted into a "brand" largely by Ethan van Sciver, is not the product. What the comic books creators are selling - comics - is the product. Not only does it provide content creators with incentive, if not livelihood, just as importantly it serves as a demonstrable proof of a superior alternative to the mainstream model where consumers and creators are subject to radical ideologue gatekeepers who have wormed their way into middlemen positions. As EVS and Zack will both tell you, the lessons that Gamergate taught everyone is that outrage and online criticism without meaningful action has a limited shelflife and accomplishes little.

CG, at its essence, is only meaningful if it furthers the validity of that proof. EVS, in service towards that goal and making that claim true blasted out a lot of agitprop and simplified Zack's thesis to the level of "IF YOU HATE SJWS TWEET #COMICSGATE LMAO BOTTOM TEXT STAY TUNED AND CHECK OUT THIS WEIRDO". And he totally succeeded in exploding CG as a "brand" and a "movement" (if not as an idea) and got a lot of creators and customers on board, but this has brought along a lot of problems as a result as well. Like a sizeable number of people who prioritize the free expression of their dumbass hot takes over abstract "valid business model" concerns like Doug TenNapel or Mike Miller. And other people who only consider Comicsgate as an flag for for autistic internet tribalists to rally behind bereft of any ideals or principles beyond the tribe, like WarCampaign. Of course, had Ethan (and other, less aware people like Yellowflash or TUC) not done this, "Comicsgate" might just be the ~1000 active members of YBZ and the original MSM comic critics still out there.
Good or bad, it is what it is.

With all that in mind, let's look at your Early Adopter stage required before it shifts into the expansion where Comicsgate is adopted by "pragmatists" - most of the CG "Early Adopters" meant to serve as advocates to pragmatists (as brand or business model) have either been driven out or have voluntarily left. Mainstream pros who have gone indie like Mike Deodato or people who were sympathetic with CG's ideals like Sean Gordon Murphy or Mike Brubaker have looked at the vicious infighting and have decided that "being Comicsgate" is not worth the price. This is to say nothing about the countless small indies who signed up for "the movement" only to get patrolled by a exceptional internet tribunal police force and wound up with harassment on top of obscurity for their trouble.

There are no future comic creators of EVS or even Malin's stature leaving the mainstream model and adopting the Comicsgate "brand".
At best, there might be another Youtuber of TUG's stature going CG. But there's a large gulf in between those two things.

In response, I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

The tactics EVS and YBZ used to publicize the problems with the industry lead to the creation of products. Those products have consistently financially outperformed 90% of those offered by leaders in the comics industry, whether you measure that by net revenue, per-product price, or any other relevant gauges.

Marvel Comics started as a challenge to a stale orthodoxy. CG creators are revitalizing a business model using direct-to-consumer marketing. The outrage component isn't really significant, there's wide dissatisfaction with entertainment today and CG creators are filling a need. To the extent they can accurately understand and anticipate what consumers want, the business side of CG will continue to grow.

Don't go too far on the product lifecycle chart. The Innovation stage is characterized by wild-eyed crazy people willing to take risks in pursuit of a goal. I'd argue we're at the end of that phase and moving into an Early Adopter stage, where customers will be less motivated by outrage and more by curiosity and a desire to know what's going on. Everything EVS has been projecting - conventions, collateral, omnibus editions, fan clubs, etc - are characteristic of the Early Adopter stage. They are marketing efforts for expanding the audience moreso than profit-generating products. YBZ's hesitance to engage with them is typical for a purist, he'd rather focus on core products while someone else grows the brand. Businesses in an ecosystem often collaborate this way, with one working out the marketing while another works out the execution. In the end, they learn from each other and build better products.

So I don't agree that CG is some hypothesis waiting to be worked out. CG has legs, Malin's recent campaign is evidence of that, Cecil's campaign is evidence of that, the number of creators entering the CG sphere are evidence of that, the total amount raised to date through these campaigns is evidence of that. It helps if you look at each initiative as its own hypothesis, creators are constantly performing experiments to discover what connects with audiences the most efficiently. Some titles will fail, some creators will leave, there will be winners and losers, etc.

But the market should grow over the next 12 months. I see no evidence of CG slowing down and think EVS (in particular) is pursuing a fruitful path.

Conversely, it seems to be failure all around for CG detractors - whether it's anti-Comicsgate, industry pros, SJWs, or just individuals with a beef. Hard to explain, but they're mostly arguing against the merits of Comicsgate as a principle and whether it's impure. Once a brand has found its customers, those arguments don't really matter anymore. It's more about whether or not you like the creators and the product, and I don't see effective assaults on that loyalty happening.

Instead, the detractors are becoming subjects of ridicule, this is what Howard Stern was doing back in his heyday. Making fun of the people who complain just adds to the potency of the brand, it creates an air of invincibility that reinforces people's enjoyment. This is a really important point, taking delight in the frustrations of your opponents. It reduces skepticism of the brand and becomes an invitation for other people to participate. That should eventually translate into a reduction of perceived notions of the vicious infighting you mentioned.

 

[The Wisdom of Bassets]

CG is a brand. No one had to decide it was, the brand is the meaning people recognize in the name.

The brand happens to be growing along commercial lines, similar to the way 'open source' grew as a brand in the early 2000s. No one owns it, but products that claim it are associated with certain attributes in the minds of consumers. Red Hat had to be an open source company to reach it's customers, that brand is one of the principle reasons it was able to beat SCO.


I'm not really sure what mainstream comics means anymore. It used to mean having a significant audience for mass market publications. Publishers seem to have a different concept these days, revolving around young adult fiction and graphic novels aimed at getting a Netflix deal.

I'm not sure that's where this is all headed. There's something novel about the way social media is being used to promote a set of titles and creative community. Hard to put into words, but Comicsgate has launched a lot of ships. Each one is a market experiment and we will see where they all get to.


Well, sure, I'd grant CG isn't much of a brand right now and nothing is for certain.

What I said is CG creators are following a predictable pattern for introducing products into the market, and they're engaging in a range of activities that can expand the brand. There's no guarantees all of them will work, but the ones that do should expand the market.

There's a lot to be said for making the right moves. The items you cite are what I expect happen as they reach new customers.


Seriously, there was a period where ideological arguments could damage the brand. We're past that, the key saboteurs have said all those things and lost. Shitposters on Twitter don't get much attention anymore. Mike and Doug argued ideology and turned off most of their audience. Professionals at the Big 2 don't talk shit anymore, their ships have some cracks in the hulls.

CG is a brand. You fight brands with publicity.

Publicity isn't a good medium for detailed appeals to conscience, but it's great for creating disgust. I spelled out a number of tactics that could be more effective.


In response, I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

The tactics EVS and YBZ used to publicize the problems with the industry lead to the creation of products. Those products have consistently financially outperformed 90% of those offered by leaders in the comics industry, whether you measure that by net revenue, per-product price, or any other relevant gauges.

Marvel Comics started as a challenge to a stale orthodoxy. CG creators are revitalizing a business model using direct-to-consumer marketing. The outrage component isn't really significant, there's wide dissatisfaction with entertainment today and CG creators are filling a need. To the extent they can accurately understand and anticipate what consumers want, the business side of CG will continue to grow.

Don't go too far on the product lifecycle chart. The Innovation stage is characterized by wild-eyed crazy people willing to take risks in pursuit of a goal. I'd argue we're at the end of that phase and moving into an Early Adopter stage, where customers will be less motivated by outrage and more by curiosity and a desire to know what's going on. Everything EVS has been projecting - conventions, collateral, omnibus editions, fan clubs, etc - are characteristic of the Early Adopter stage. They are marketing efforts for expanding the audience moreso than profit-generating products. YBZ's hesitance to engage with them is typical for a purist, he'd rather focus on core products while someone else grows the brand. Businesses in an ecosystem often collaborate this way, with one working out the marketing while another works out the execution. In the end, they learn from each other and build better products.

So I don't agree that CG is some hypothesis waiting to be worked out. CG has legs, Malin's recent campaign is evidence of that, Cecil's campaign is evidence of that, the number of creators entering the CG sphere are evidence of that, the total amount raised to date through these campaigns is evidence of that. It helps if you look at each initiative as its own hypothesis, creators are constantly performing experiments to discover what connects with audiences the most efficiently. Some titles will fail, some creators will leave, there will be winners and losers, etc.

But the market should grow over the next 12 months. I see no evidence of CG slowing down and think EVS (in particular) is pursuing a fruitful path.

Conversely, it seems to be failure all around for CG detractors - whether it's anti-Comicsgate, industry pros, SJWs, or just individuals with a beef. Hard to explain, but they're mostly arguing against the merits of Comicsgate as a principle and whether it's impure. Once a brand has found its customers, those arguments don't really matter anymore. It's more about whether or not you like the creators and the product, and I don't see effective assaults on that loyalty happening.

Instead, the detractors are becoming subjects of ridicule, this is what Howard Stern was doing back in his heyday. Making fun of the people who complain just adds to the potency of the brand, it creates an air of invincibility that reinforces people's enjoyment. This is a really important point, taking delight in the frustrations of your opponents. It reduces skepticism of the brand and becomes an invitation for other people to participate. That should eventually translate into a reduction of perceived notions of the vicious infighting you mentioned.

From what I can see, there are a lot of people that don't have a grasp of economics, advertising or human psychology. Many of the arguments begin and end with personality conflicts and as soon as personality is brought into it, any objective analysis of the product/business goes out the window.

First of all, anyone can go back throughout history and see that some of the most successful businesses/companies/people were not remotely popular/nice/everyone's bestie. Rockefeller, Ford. Edison, insert industrial Revolution baron here. Every one of these guys saw a market, understood where it could be exploited and either did so themselves or hired the people that could. Ford and Edison were two examples of people that had no end of detractors offering up conflicting rationalizations of why the assembly line or AC/the light bulb was going to fail.

And there were no end of people using every underhanded trick and lie in the book to thwart them.

Ford understood that everyone could use a car. Most people wanted a car. So he created the assembly line to make as many as he could sell. That went over like a church farting bee with the horse/buggy industry. EVS/YBZ saw a market for the comics people always loved and no one still made. The industry of Comics today is co-opted by politics and agenda. So EVS/YBZ removed that from their model.

This upset a handful of people who wanted CG to be either their personal battering ram, or their fans. We already know and understand that aspect of all this. But when you keep looking, you find what? People pissed off about MONEY. Just like the SJWs.

So now go back to the beginning of this post. People don't understand that the economic reality of low volume printing and distribution cost dramatically more than a Marvel/DC book through Diamond. Have they TRIED mailing a book lately? It's gonna cost them the same thing it costs EVS/YBZ or any other creator. $10-25 depending on where it's going.

You are already at 5x the cost of a mainstream book before printing costs, colorer/lettering, paying the artist etc. But somehow the accusations of greed and grift fly from economic illiterates, troublemakers or both. Because it's not coming from customers. They just want the cheapest price possible and right now, thats what the price is.

And then there's the personality conflict driven aspect. There's not a lot to be done there other than either fighting the BS that comes from it, or letting a bunch of SJW/Anti types destroy CG business. And these people willfully refuse to see this all as someone's business. They only see 'grift' 'A Ripoff" etc. We are talking 7 figure books now. It's not outside the realm of 'industrial sabotage' when that level of cash is in the offing... And we have ALREADY SEEN Marvel senior management and DC senior management tweet/hire etc, the very SJWs trying to destroy CG with false claims and blacklisting any creator who will work with a CG company/creator.

Do the Antis and SJWs have reason to mock, block and shout down CG or it's supporters? Well, just look to the past. They have been doing exactly that for what? Three years now?

TLDR: Think about the bigger picture before going off with a mad-on about the above points. All this crap happens for a reason. If the product is what you want as a customer, why create the drama to begin with? If it's not what you want as a customer, then why create the drama to begin with?