Martial Arts Discussion For Ladies

[I've Seen Some More Shit]

Jesus Christ not even a full page of posts in and people are already suggesting trying to get themselves killed.

Spoiler: Quick Power Level

Did high school and collegiate wrestling, boxed for 12 years including a 4 year professional stint (it was not impressive at all, I only won a few of my matches and more were draws) but I did earn a set of golden gloves), I was a trainer and coach for a few years after that, and like most young men in combat sports who liked drinking and being fucking retarded, I've been in a lot of altercations. I'm not an expert by any means but I've hit and been hit enough to opine on what doesn't work.

I was gonna do a bunch of multiquote mega-spergery and counter all the more than likely dangerous advice but I then realized most Kiwis are more than likely smart enough to realize when someone is writing something profoundly retarded and won't trust most stupid bullshit they read here. But I am gonna keep my sperging on OP specifically because his sounds just confidence-inducing enough people might believe it and I already pulled up all the sources so I might as well employ them:

Despite what the dudebros may say, women are more than capable of holding their own.

Even against men of similar weight class and skill, they really, really aren't. That leg kick fucked you up because there's several bundles of nerves in your upper and lower legs that if you hit a lot, your target will fall over. Anyone can do it. The real issue is, if you're letting someone constantly kick your legs, they're not holding their own - you are simply incompetent because why are you letting someone constantly hit the same spots over and over? I wouldn't call a woman a strong puncher for landing a good liver shot, I'd say whoever she hit wasn't protecting their body like they should have.

Men have thicker skin (meaning less likely to tear from strikes such as punches or elbows), stronger tendons (meaning men can strike harder with less risk of joint injury and resist grapples in far more superior fashion), men's muscle tissue is pound-for-pound stronger than women's, men's necks are not only wider but thicker than women's meaning they're less likely to be concussed by strikes to the head and are far superior for maintenance respiration, for crying out loud men simply even have the anatomical proportions to just breathe better than women! There's even more about male anatomy that puts them well into the advantageous position from a sheer biomechanical standpoint. And none of this goes into the litanies of benefits testosterone has on strenuous physical activity - such as fighting.

All of the anecdotal incidents you're citing are more condemning of your own ability (or at least your own willingness to defend yourself) than it is a praise of women's capability. You're suggesting things that will give women false confidence that can get them hurt.

Does this mean women shouldn't practice martial arts? Fuck no! Everyone should be training in at least something for a little bit of their down-time! It's good exercise, helps your body become the best it can be, and it's still fun to practice and does offer valuable skills and ways to employ your physicality. But don't push the incredibly retarded idea that women can hold their own with men. That's how you get women hurt, and the only people who really wanna see women get hurt are trannies.

That being said, if we're talking defense, two Kiwis posted it best:

Two things. Learn Run No Jutsu and Gun-Fu.

Situational awareness and good running shoes are the most valuable martial arts, right behind being proficient with a gun.

These are the best pieces of advice for women wanting to defend themselves because it's the best advice for anyone wanting to defend themselves. Outside of not being in places where you might have to defend yourself, you should always be ready to get the fuck out of a place where you might have to defend yourself and you should always be exercising your second amendment (or closest equivalent) rights to the furthest extent your state allows - and even then toe the line a little.

The world we live in is not a culture that embraces wanton violence as many might think it does - embracing violence sinks you into a secondary subculture of those who do embrace it, and the people who embrace it down there are niggers and no-better-than-niggers.
Don't become a nigger.

 

[ElHijodeDeficienciaCogni]

Very inspiring story if true.

However I don't see this going well when a woman is confronted by a man, potentially several men, all probably bulkier and heavier, in the freaking streets at night, when even the lack of visibility could be a factor.

Like if these attackers are not complete idiots, that scenario you described will never occur. It's not 1 on 1 with all the space around to skillfully avoid punches, but more like 3 on 1, a step away from you, where the second you make contact 1 of them will probably grab your arm and not leg go, while the others beat you up.

If she tries one of those Aikido locks, or even "redirecting his weight" in the most movie-like fashion for a dude that doubles her in muscle mass, I don't see it going well since this is not Baki the grappler.

At that point, you're better off scratching their eyes or kicking them in the knees & make a sprint to get away.

I have defeated countless opponents using Aikido, and they always ask me, Why are you so strong?

I answer, I'm not strong, you are.

Aikido uses the strength of the attacker back at them but 10 times stronger(estimate). Using Aikido and I can probably kill a charging Rhino using it's force right back at it, of course, I'm not going to try it, way to dangerous for any sane person. I recommend practicing Aikido for every Kiwi, as you are all physically weak, and Aikido is specialized for the weak to defend against the strong.

A 50 year old man with cerebral palsy doing Aikido, very touching.

 

[We Are The Witches]

I feel like the Sun Tzu recommendations of avoiding fights are so obvious that it's redundant, and not even the point of the thread.

How about this, get a gun or a pepper spray kit.

 

[VeteranOfTheRetardWars]

The real issue is, if you're letting someone constantly kick your legs, they're not holding their own - you are simply incompetent because why are you letting someone constantly hit the same spots over and over?

Uh, because she’s a trained Muay Thai fighter and I’m not one?
My point is that through training a woman can certainly fight, maybe not as destructive as a trained male fighter but she can still whack you good, and that a rear naked choke is a rear naked choke and those put you to sleep.
Also, if a woman takes a kickboxing class and thinks she’s suddenly Wonder Woman that’s not false confidence that’s straight-up retardation. She was probably going to do something else stupid even if she didn’t take the class.

 

[I've Seen Some More Shit]

Uh, because she’s a trained Muay Thai fighter and I’m not one?

Why are you letting a trained Muay Thai fighter constantly kick your legs? Either you agreed to a spar/fight with someone you didn't know the training level of - which I shouldn't need to elaborate on how bad of an idea that is - or you somehow got a lottery winner's luck and was ambushed by the only Nak Muay woman mugger in town and by that point if your luck is that shit you shouldn't be going outside at all to avoid the same fate as Aeschylus. And you are aware that a rear naked choke is only as effective as the grappler's ability to obtain your back, yeah?
If you've stumbled into a position where anyone has access to your back and they seek to incapacitate you, or you're fighting someone who has a severe skill differential over you while you somehow don't even know how to use your own anatomical advantage meaning they get free reign to maim you, those are products of a stacking series of errors on your own end. It is not and should be seen as indicative of the competence of your combatant, but the incompetence of you.

 

[VeteranOfTheRetardWars]

Why are you letting a trained Muay Thai fighter constantly kick your legs? Either you agreed to a spar/fight with someone you didn't know the training level of - which I shouldn't need to elaborate on how bad of an idea that is - or you somehow got a lottery winner's luck and was ambushed by the only Nak Muay woman mugger in town and by that point if your luck is that shit you shouldn't be going outside at all to avoid the same fate as Aeschylus. And you are aware that a rear naked choke is only as effective as the grappler's ability to obtain your back, yeah?

Because it was a Muay Thai class and she was one of the instructors, this isn’t rocket science it’s training.
As for taking the back and grappling, that’s why we practice taking and controlling the back.
You don’t wake up one day as Buakaw or Ryan Hall, you get there through training and I would like more people to train because I think training is great for people.
Would you say the same things to a big guy who got schooled by a smaller fighter who has been training longer? Because I’ve strangled and locked linebackers and lo and behold his innate physical advantages didn’t overcome my training because he couldn’t tell his ass from his elbow on the ground.

 

[I've Seen Some More Shit]

Because it was a Muay Thai class and she was one of the instructors, this isn’t rocket science it’s training.
As for taking the back and grappling, that’s why we practice taking and controlling the back.
You don’t wake up one day as Buakaw or Ryan Hall, you get there through training and I would like more people to train because I think training is great for people.

The platitude's nice and all, but if someone slaps you hard enough to make you dizzy when you weren't expecting it or able to brace yourself, does that make them a good slapper? They might be better than the average, but your inability to anticipate being hit is going to make you more susceptible to it.

I also imagine that after the first time she gave you that leg kick, you put in a lot of effort to not get kicked in the leg in any other spars, yeah? And given some would still inevitably land, they probably weren't as crippling.

 

[.iota.]

the thread was moved to gorl tawk. lol

that random.txt though, lol, lmao even.

 

[VeteranOfTheRetardWars]

The platitude's nice and all, but if someone slaps you hard enough to make you dizzy when you weren't expecting it or able to brace yourself, does that make them a good slapper? They might be better than the average, but your inability to anticipate being hit is going to make you more susceptible to it.

I also imagine that after the first time she gave you that leg kick, you put in a lot of effort to not get kicked in the leg in any other spars, yeah? And given some would still inevitably land, they probably weren't as crippling.

Not to glaze her even more, but man she is fast. And yes, I got better through training with her.
Honestly, I’m just trying to be positive because I really love martial arts, want to spread the good word amongst women after some conversations at the gym got my noggin jogging, I didn’t see a dedicated women’s martial arts thread, and I’ve always wrote verbosely, so really I think we’re just quibbling over details. And, in my opinion, people who do fight tend to kind of get tunnel vision and we get this idea that more people know what’s going on than actually do.
You’re correct about me getting dabbed on because I didn’t know shit, but bring yourself back to the very first day you put on the gloves. We all start having to learn the basics, and if you’ve never done those before getting dabbed on is how you learn those basics. Don’t drop your hands whack, check the kick whack, parry that punch whack, we learn all those things by practice and that’s how we improve.
I think at the end of the day we would all agree that if push comes to shove it’s much better to be trained in fighting than not, and that even holding off a larger attacker for half a minute more can be enough for help to arrive, to yell out and raise a ruckus, or extricate yourself from that situation. You don’t need to KO the guy, you could kick him in the dick or the knee or punch him in the throat and bolt to your car and that’s infinitely better than having a guy do whatever he wants to you.

the thread was moved to gorl tawk. lol

I made this thread in Gorl Tawk because me and some people in the gym were talking about Ffion Davies and it got to the topic of how more women have been taking an interest in martial arts lately, and after a quick search there wasn’t a thread here about it so why not.

 

[Mexican Molotov Marauder]

Arguably the most powerful martial arts in Japan.
An Aikido practitioner is practically invincible, no one of any martial arts background can ever land a punch or kick on one.
Using the power of the attacker, the Aikido practitioner uses absolutely no energy to knock them down.
A fearsome martial arts it is.

Fuck off Steven Seagal, I'm not buying your bullshit.

 

[ElHijodeDeficienciaCogni]

Fuck off Steven Seagal, I'm not buying your bullshit.

You sound fat. Do you happen to have some love handles that you would love to get rid of?
There is a way. A quick way.

Aikido.

You will be down to 10% body fat by the forth month, while learning the most effective martial arts at the same time. I used to have fat around my stomach area, did Aikido, now my six pack can be seen by all the ladies. Become fit and kick ass at the same time.

 

[VeteranOfTheRetardWars]

Fuck off Steven Seagal, I'm not buying your bullshit.

Aikido is a beautiful art and philosophy, but it’s not the greatest combat system because that’s not what it’s supposed to be. The wrist locks are mean, one guy I train with is a wrist lock fanatic and they are sneaky, but if you don’t learn to apply them in sparring or have other tools you are limited as a fighter.

 

[I've Seen Some More Shit]

This is my only comment on the Aikido suggestion:

Honestly, I’m just trying to be positive because I really love martial arts, want to spread the good word amongst women after some conversations at the gym got my noggin jogging, I didn’t see a dedicated women’s martial arts thread, and I’ve always wrote verbosely, so really I think we’re just quibbling over details. And, in my opinion, people who do fight tend to kind of get tunnel vision and we get this idea that more people know what’s going on than actually do.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to promote martial arts, I fully endorse it, but I do think opening up with the "Women can kick men's asses too" is a bit of a bad faith approach that's gonna instill false confidence before anything because it sets people up with a preconceived notion that can get them hurt.

Ultimately, if nothing else, the OP and my response at least promotes a more thorough look at that specific topic and makes for a more thorough discussion than talks of wrist-grippy woowoo so I do think it was still constructive to have this little micro-debate on it.

 

[VeteranOfTheRetardWars]

This is my only comment on the Aikido suggestion:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0KUXTC8g_pk
There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to promote martial arts, I fully endorse it, but I do think opening up with the "Women can kick men's asses too" is a bit of a bad faith approach that's gonna instill false confidence before anything because it sets people up with a preconceived notion that can get them hurt.

Ultimately, if nothing else, the OP and my response at least promotes a more thorough look at that specific topic and makes for a more thorough discussion than talks of wrist-grippy woowoo so I do think it was still constructive to have this little micro-debate on it.

No, that’s very fair. I just tend to get excited when I talk about things I really like. And, in my defense, if anyone reads a post by man with “retard” in his username and tries to take back the streets that’s a personal deficiency.
We likely agree on more things than we disagree.
The story with my teacher is actually kind of funny. It was my first sparring class so she went with me to give me pointers and show me what’s up, and the regular room was full so she took me into the wrestling room and it was just us. Me, being a noob, essentially just got taken to the back room and whooped, and as I was limping out the other guys were like “yeah, she’s legit isn’t she?” and I was like “yes, ouch…”
And then there’s this girl I grapple with who is a corn fed farm gal, roughly my size, and I swear if she gets on top of you she ain’t getting off. Her pressure is magnificent, just a good a solid grappler all around.

 

[Lei Wulong's Left Leg]

Everything that @I've Seen Some More Shit has said is good. In general, the best self defense is just not putting yourself into that situation to begin with. Now with all that said, I wholeheartedly encourage people to look into martial arts and will follow-up with some more advice for first-timers and hopeful window shoppers based on my own experiences.

Spoiler: powerlevel

I've done kickboxing since winter of '05, taught it for a few years, and also dabbled in Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, and Aikido coincidentally enough lol

Choosing the right martial art for you
While not all martial arts are created equal, you might not necessarily enjoy a martial art just because everyone else is doing it. For example, I've never jived with Muay Thai despite a kickboxing background. The best martial art is the one that you like doing. That's it.
If you like hitting people and learning how to punch and kick well: Kickboxing, Boxing, Muay Thai and MMA are all good. Some schools of Karate(Namely Kyokushin) and Tae Kwon Do(ITF affiliation only, World Taekwondo is actual dogshit) can be good, but use your discretion and do your research. If you like throwing and grappling people, the gold standard is Brazillian Jiu Jitsu - Just bear in mind the community can be very secular, so your experience at one gym may be different to another. If you like throwing people more than grappling them, learn Judo.
Remember, if your school does not do some form of sparring, you will not learn how to defend yourself properly. Lots of people fall into the trap of going to a "Kickboxing" gym and basically just doing kickboxercise. If that's all you want to do, fine, no skin off my shoes. But you won't have that experience you're looking for to defend yourself. On the flipside, you may find an MMA gym whose only focus is getting a bunch of testosterone-filled 20-something-year-old guys into competitive MMA. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with learning for sport, but remember that sports have rules, and trying to tell someone "Hey, that's against the rules!" when they're trying to stomp your head in with a steel-toed boot is unlikely to be very effective persuasion.
Finally, any place that shills itself as an unnamed, super dangerous self-defense martial art is likely a power fantasy cash grab. They will over-charge you, teach you nothing of value, and shower you in the false praise that you're a "walking, talking, lethal weapon". This also applies to Krav Maga, the Israeli military martial art repurposed for self-defense. There are some good Krav schools, allegedly, but I have yet to find one.

Spoiler: Personal tier list of martial arts for self-defense

S TIER: Kickboxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Sambo
A Tier: Boxing, Judo, Kyokushin Karate
B Tier: Most forms of Karate, ITF Taekwondo
C Tier: WT Taekwondo, Kickboxercise
D Tier(Will take your money and sell you a lie): Aikido, Capoeira, Wing Chun, most branches of Kung Fu, "Self defense" martial arts, anything and everything related to Ninjitsu(includes Bujinkan)
YMMV: Homebrew(if you ask them, they'll tell you they take inspiration from a bunch of different styles), Krav Maga
Secret SSS Tier: Ameri-do-te. Remember, always re-stomp the groin.

Red flags:

1. They don't spar. As mentioned above, you will gain knowledge, but no experience, and in some cases hinder your own development. Not good.
2. Membership fees are exorbitant. Compare prices with other local martial arts schools if you can, but a good standard I use is roughly $150 a month is my absolute upper limit.
3. They promise you a black belt or mastery within two years. It takes you about 2 years of regular practice to receive your first colored belt in Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. Two years does not constitute a black belt, that's just a participation trophy.
4. If you search up their school or master's name on Bullshido forums and it comes up at all.
5. They don't spar. That's right, it's on here twice. That's how important it is.
6. How much of an aloof asshole the master instructor is. This personality will have been indented into his most high-ranking instructors, and usually gives you a good idea of what the atmosphere is like.

 

[ElHijodeDeficienciaCogni]

Aikido is a beautiful art and philosophy, but it’s not the greatest combat system because that’s not what it’s supposed to be. The wrist locks are mean, one guy I train with is a wrist lock fanatic and they are sneaky, but if you don’t learn to apply them in sparring or have other tools you are limited as a fighter.

My Sensei is a master of many martial arts- Taekwondo, Kendo, Sudoku, Go... you wouldn't, no, COULDNT believe your eyes.

He always told me his true power was due to his learning of Aikido(he has a black belt but doesn't consider himself a master of the true art, as everyone is a student forever in Aikido). With Aikido, he can end conflicts without hurting anyone, by redirecting their own energy into a armlock or trip that is inescapable(because how can you beat yourself...?) and he just asks the defeated person if they have calmed down before he lets them go... very beautiful martial arts, Aikido is.

They say you can even reverse direction of an entire car if you know how...

This is my only comment on the Aikido suggestion:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0KUXTC8g_pk
There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to promote martial arts, I fully endorse it, but I do think opening up with the "Women can kick men's asses too" is a bit of a bad faith approach that's gonna instill false confidence before anything because it sets people up with a preconceived notion that can get them hurt.

Ultimately, if nothing else, the OP and my response at least promotes a more thorough look at that specific topic and makes for a more thorough discussion than talks of wrist-grippy woowoo so I do think it was still constructive to have this little micro-debate on it.

Earlier this week I had the opportunity to fight a MMA fighter, and I declined.
No, it's not because I was chicken to fight, I notice that he wasn't worthy of fighting, in fact, no one in the past month who had challenge is worthy. I don't like holding back to have a challenge.

I wish I was weaker, so I can fight without having to hold back.

 

[I've Seen Some More Shit]

Red flags:

Gonna add a red flag here: Pedigree.

Not every reputable school is going to have its own champion of some kind. But they'll either descend from teachers/practitioners with their own records you can look up, or have students with their own distinct records. They will usually have some kind of documentation or evidence of their alumni/pedigree somewhere.

Maybe they keep some of their students' trophies or belts, maybe they've got certificates proving affiliation (this is popular for Asian martial arts that like to trace lineages), maybe there's photos of the trainers with the notable alumni. The point is they should have some kind of results to call back to.

Having nothing is a red flag, but even having some notable names can be a red flag - if they're a bunch of shitters (not guys who've lost a lot - you can learn a lot from losing that's valuable to teach! Cus D'Amato only ever have one fight and he lost!) with very short, dubious, or controversial records that's arguably worse than having nothing at all. They should have connection in some noticeable way to at least one person of repute in the field.

 

[.iota.]

How about this, get a gun or a pepper spray kit.

personally, i have both, but not all the time. when i don't, i have myself, and that's been sufficient thus far.

i don't intend to be antagonistic, but consider your original scenario of a woman being surrounded by a group of violent criminals circling in the middle of the night. of what more use is a gun or pepper spray then?

is she going to be able to shoot and mortally wound all of her assailants? or is the more likely scenario that even shooting one of her assailants will not deter the rest, and she will still have to physically defend herself before her own firearm is taken and used against her?

the same could be argued regarding pepper spray. is she going to be able to effectively use it to deter all of her assailants? or is the more likely scenario that she will still have to physically defend herself, while half-blind and choking, against assailants who may or may not also be affected, but who are now angry and more determined?

all this to say, again, that in my experience, aikido is about avoiding these kinds of situations in the first place, and when that's not possible, it's about minimizing physical interaction and concluding physical violence.

I made this thread in Gorl Tawk

my mistake, i thought it was in health & fitness when i saw it in the new threads last night.

 

[We Are The Witches]

all this to say, again, that in my experience, aikido is about avoiding these kinds of situations in the first place, and when that's not possible, it's about minimizing physical interaction and concluding physical violence.

Yeah, but you don't need Aikido for the first thing you mention (avoiding these situations and use common sense, it's not that deep of a philosophy in this case).

For the second, when you're forced to, I seriously doubt you'll be able to pull one of those where you redirect the guy's force with minimal touch, and swiftly throw him into the pavement, specially in that stressful and not ideal scenario.

Chances are, you're getting slammed to the floor.

If you have to take physical action after exhausting all your other possiblities, as mentioned, it's probably better to target weak parts such as eyes, and then make a run for it.
And while you're doing that, if you have several attackers already on you (which is probably the most likely circumstance), MMA is far better than Aikido.

 

[Billy Hargrove]

There's even more about male anatomy that puts them well into the advantageous position from a sheer biomechanical standpoint. And none of this goes into the litanies of benefits testosterone has on strenuous physical activity - such as fighting.

I agree with your whole post. There have been studies comparing strength between female Olympic athletes and just random dudes who don’t even exercise and the men still had like 80% more upper body strength. Situational awareness and feeling confident in your body are great but I’m calling on women defending themselves with martial arts.