Legend of Zelda thread - Lorefags GTFO!

It being more like the latter would go against the design philosophy.
And I'm saying the philosophy is dumb. And you can still experiment whilst being able to buy basic weapons and upgrade your existing weapons to be more durable or have more attack power.

I mean, for fuck's sake, there are four great fairies in the game who upgrade your clothes (by trying to have sex with you, it would seem :lol:) Is it that unreasonable for Nintendo to have made it so that they can upgrade your weapons too?
So you save the more powerful ones for those encounters
Me personally, I just avoid them as much as possible until you get the Master Sword, which does a good 60 damage against guardians
Once you find things like Ancient Arrows, dealing with them becomes much easier, and also don’t require you to farm weapons.
Yes but you don't find Ancient Arrows. You build them by farming guardian parts. And I found out, way too late in the game, that the best source for the shafts you need to make Ancient Arrows doesn't come from the regular, spider-like guardians but the less common heli-drone style guardians
 
Me personally, I just avoid them as much as possible until you get the Master Sword, which does a good 60 damage against guardians
IIRC it goes up to 120 after doing the trials. Still underwhelming though.

You also can find Ancient Arrows but (afaik) they're fixed spawns tied to specific chests so you have a small and finite amount until you need to start crafting them again.
 
Interestingly, the whole upgrading weapons thing was sort of implemented in TOTK, via the whole weapon fusing mechanic, though they still break.

But back to BOTW, it’s meant for you to save more powerful weapons, and not rely on combat as the only manner in which to engage with both the world and the enemies. Plus, some of the more useful items are found through exploration.

Heck, you can even scavenge the materials needed for the Ancient Arrows through finding and interacting with decayed Guardian remains.
 
Interestingly, the whole upgrading weapons thing was sort of implemented in TOTK, via the whole weapon fusing mechanic, though they still break.

But back to BOTW, it’s meant for you to save more powerful weapons, and not rely on combat as the only manner in which to engage with both the world and the enemies. Plus, some of the more useful items are found through exploration.

Heck, you can even scavenge the materials needed for the Ancient Arrows through finding and interacting with decayed Guardian remains.
Also true, however my contention with the system is that you're removing one of the game's central pillars when you make the combat unrewarding. Even if you are creative and fully utilize the environments, or in Tears' case the Zonai materials, to their fullest what does that actually get you? The loot pool is incredibly limited and typically what you get is limited to crafting materials (monster parts or meat from animals), weapons (which is the Oxcart Paradox in action), rupees (which have a very limited usage due to the ease of farming and lack of shops), or gems (which are only good to use for dyes or as a proxy for rupees, they're also under the "crafting materials" category in Tears).

The only reason to engage with combat at that point is either because you must do it for the purpose of quest progression or for simple love of combat but the combat system being so shallow actively sabotages that incentive. Were there genuine differences in weapons beyond aesthetics, raw numbers, and the very occasional elemental weapon, then this might be worth it to trade a weapon you're kind of lukewarm on for a weapon with a skill attached to it or a moveset that you like. And even were that the case the weapon durability system then disincentivizes and punishes you for actually using a weapon that you like by ripping it out of your inventory and telling you to eat shit by breaking it (usually within one or two combat encounters) with no option to repair and replacement only possible through scavenging.

Zelda games moving forward should seek to solve this problem by diversifying and expanding loot pools, adding more use cases for rupees, add back in more complex combat in the vein of what they started to implement with Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, add true variety to weapons by giving things like stances and movesets that vary between weapons in the vein of a Souls title, and finally by implementing a system in the vein of Link's Adventure's leveling system which would allow you to allocate points to boost your skills and unlock abilities and powers. If Zelda wishes to be more open world that's totally cool and I would wholeheartedly welcome a Zelda 1 style game with BoTW/ToTK style open world exploration combined with the classic dungeoneering of OoT/MM/WW/TP, doubly so if they combined the two in such a way that genuine exploration of the dungeon is also needed where you would need to bring in outside objects to complete puzzles. But on top of that I think that the addition of leveling mechanics would also be nice in order to build Link the way you like in order to better utilize powers and weapons that you also like more similar to a Souls title or Elden Ring.

Nintendo's big issue is that they always take one step forward and one step back. Breath was great for running around the overworld, fucking around with farming, and the shrines were generally okay. But everything else surrounding those peaks were some very deep valleys. When you're making an open world game you have the three pillars of Exploration, Combat, and Story, and unfortunately for BoTW the Story pillar is only acceptable at best and the Combat pillar isn't solid at all, ToTK is worse because neither the Story nor the Combat pillar stand up even if the Exploration pillar is as strong or perhaps even stronger than BoTW's.

(Edited primarily for spelling)
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
I find the discourse around BOTW interesting, because while it's all subjective and I would agree it's not the best in the series, I do disagree that it doesn't play like a 3D Zelda game. The puzzles in the shrines, the characters, the way it controls, etc. absolutely feels like a 3D Zelda game. I think the core gameplay loop of rolling into a new area, the people in the area have some problem, going into a dungeon and solving the problem also furthers Link's overarching goal is there in the form of the divine beasts, but it's not as big a part of the game as it was previously and I think this is the game's biggest issue. The game should have had four, large, linear dungeons, where the items you get play a part in beating the dungeon/boss. For example, what if there was a large linear wind temple full of puzzles involving the game's wind physics and halfway through it, you got access to Revali's Gale which you need to get up to the boss room?

I think people also misunderstand the shrines when they think of them as desconstructed dungeons. The spirit orbs are basically just pieces of heart. The shrines are clearly stand ins for little challenges that would get you a piece of heart in other 3D games, not the dungeons. You're doing a shrine instead of racing the beavers in Majora's Mask or bombchu bowling in OOT. You're going into a shrine to get some optional armor as opposed to racing a deku scrub for an optional mask. I do think it'd be fair to argue these tasks in older games were more interesting than a bunch of shrines that look the same. However, I think of them as more of a realization of what the Grottos should have been in the N64 games than something that was intended as a replacement for dungeons.

I think BOTW, a game with four divine beasts and 120 shrines, most of them optional, actually shares a lot of DNA with Majora's Mask, another game with only four dungeons and a boatload of optional content with 52 pieces of heart, 15 or so optional masks to and a half dozen or so optional upgrades. I think if you made BOTW a bit more like MM by making the dungeons bigger and more linear and making the optional content more varied, you'd have the makings of one of the best games in the series.

*Sorry for the edit. I wanted to organize my thoughts better*
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
Zelda games moving forward should seek to solve this problem by diversifying and expanding loot pools, adding more use cases for rupees, add back in more complex combat in the vein of what they started to implement with Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, add true variety to weapons by giving things like stances and movesets that vary between weapons in the vein of a Souls title, and finally by implementing a system in the vein of Link's Adventure's leveling system which would allow you to allocate points to boost your skills and unlock abilities and powers. If Zelda wishes to be more open world that's totally cool and I would wholeheartedly welcome a Zelda 1 style game with BoTW/ToTK style open world exploration combined with the classic dungeoneering of OoT/MM/WW/TP, doubly so if they combined the two in such a way that genuine exploration of the dungeon is also needed where you would need to bring in outside objects to complete puzzles. But on top of that I think that the addition of leveling mechanics would also be nice in order to build Link the way you like in order to better utilize powers and weapons that you also like more similar to a Souls title or Elden Ring.

Nintendo's big issue is that they always take one step forward and one step back. Breath was great for running around the overworld, fucking around with farming, and the shrines were generally okay. But everything else surrounding those peaks were some very deep valleys. When you're making an open world game you have the three pillars of Exploration, Combat, and Story, and unfortunately for BoTW the Story pillar is only acceptable at best and the Combat pillar isn't solid at all, ToTK is worse because neither the Story nor the Combat pillar stand up even if the Exploration pillar is as strong or perhaps even stronger than BoTW's.
See, this is exactly my point. Can't there be a middle-ground? Can't we have open world exploration but with more traditional Zelda elements?

People complained that Skyward Sword was restrictive and there was virtually no exploration, so Nintendo with Breath of the Wild gave you massive exploration but cut the Zelda elements that people had no problem with
 
Me personally, I just avoid them as much as possible until you get the Master Sword, which does a good 60 damage against guardians
I think you're meant to master parrying the Guardians' beams. It's like Punch Out, it seems super hard, but once you get the timing down it's easy.
 
I think you're meant to master parrying the Guardians' beams. It's like Punch Out, it seems super hard, but once you get the timing down it's easy.
It's the only economic way to fight Guardians until you get the Master Sword, which I'd like to remind everyone requires you to complete a minimum of twenty-four shrines to get, and that's only if you do all four Divine Beasts prior to getting it. If you wait to do the Divine Beasts then it's minimum forty shrines.
 
I think BOTW, a game with four divine beasts and 120 shrines, most of them optional, actually shares a lot of DNA with Majora's Mask, another game with only four dungeons and a boatload of optional content with 52 pieces of heart, 15 or so optional masks to and a half dozen or so optional upgrades.
I disagree. BOTW is a big open game. Majora's Mask is a small game. I think the working title for Majora's Mask was Zelda Gaiden and that's what it feels like. A side story. With Majora's Mask what's important is the characters and the relationships and interplay between the characters, more than the main dungeons and questing. I think Nintendo said that they were inspired by Twin Peaks for Ocarina and Majora and you can really see the Twin Peaks influence in Majora's Mask especially.

BOTW, by contrast, the characters are almost completely unimportant. It's almost Souls-like in its plot and characterisations. What is important is the questing, roaming around the overworld to discover things. I'd say, if anything, BOTW shares most of its DNA with the original Legend of Zelda.
 
I disagree. BOTW is a big open game. Majora's Mask is a small game. I think the working title for Majora's Mask was Zelda Gaiden and that's what it feels like. A side story. With Majora's Mask what's important is the characters and the relationships and interplay between the characters, more than the main dungeons and questing. I think Nintendo said that they were inspired by Twin Peaks for Ocarina and Majora and you can really see the Twin Peaks influence in Majora's Mask especially.

BOTW, by contrast, the characters are almost completely unimportant. It's almost Souls-like in its plot and characterisations. What is important is the questing, roaming around the overworld to discover things. I'd say, if anything, BOTW shares most of its DNA with the original Legend of Zelda.
The vast majority of content in Majora's Mask is also entirely optional, which is why I said it shares a lot of DNA with BOTW. I didn't say they were exactly the same. If you want to debate the use of the word "DNA", fine, but there's not need to be pedantic.
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
The vast majority of content in Majora's Mask is also entirely optional, which is why I said it shares a lot of DNA with BOTW. I didn't say they were exactly the same. If you want to debate the use of the word "DNA", fine, but there's not need to be pedantic.
MM shares a lot of the same design philosophy that BoTW does, I agree.
 
The vast majority of content in Majora's Mask is also entirely optional, which is why I said it shares a lot of DNA with BOTW. I didn't say they were exactly the same.
Yeah, but a lot of the content in Wind Waker is entirely optional. See, I would have said that BOTW shares more of its DNA with Wind Waker than Majora. You've got Koroks, you've got Rito (even though they're literal birds now instead of just birdmen), you've got Beedle, you've got the parasail which is just the Deku Leaf that uses stamina instead of magic. The bokoblin design is most similar to Wind Waker's. Wind Waker has a clear influence on BOTW
 
Yeah, but a lot of the content in Wind Waker is entirely optional. See, I would have said that BOTW shares more of its DNA with Wind Waker than Majora. You've got Koroks, you've got Rito (even though they're literal birds now instead of just birdmen), you've got Beedle, you've got the parasail which is just the Deku Leaf that uses stamina instead of magic. The bokoblin design is most similar to Wind Waker's. Wind Waker has a clear influence on BOTW
The things you are pointing here out are just window dressing. I could turn around and point out that Wind Waker lacks Gorons(besides the ones with the hats), horse-riding and Zora. Every Zelda game borrows things from past entries and tries out new mechanics, but that's not as substantial as most of the game being entirely optional. There are only three where the majority of content is entirely optional. I never said these games were exactly the same, or were of a similar quality, just that they are similar in that there are only a handful of main dungeons most of the content is optional.
 
See, this is exactly my point. Can't there be a middle-ground? Can't we have open world exploration but with more traditional Zelda elements?
Honestly, I'd just settle for an enemy that needed a very specific tool or weapon to deal with instead just stabbing everything with a pitchfork. It's what separated Zelda from the competition. Sure, BOTW had boomerangs...Which were kind of terrible to actually aim with.
 
I could turn around and point out that Wind Waker lacks Gorons(besides the ones with the hats), horse-riding and Zora
Well, there you go, you contradicted yourself. Wind Waker HAS Gorons. It has Zora (remember the Rito evolved from Zora). And your boat is your horse
but that's not as substantial as most of the game being entirely optional
Most of Wind Waker is entirely optional. You don't have to go to all those tiny islands, and there are only how many dungeons in the game? 5? Maybe 6?
 
Well, there you go, you contradicted yourself. Wind Waker HAS Gorons. It has Zora (remember the Rito evolved from Zora). And your boat is your horse

Most of Wind Waker is entirely optional. You don't have to go to all those tiny islands, and there are only how many dungeons in the game? 5? Maybe 6?
You're overthinking it to the point of autism.

My point was nothing more than, "They both have four dungeons. Most of the content in both is optional."

Saying most of the content in Wind Waker is optional, is really reaching.

Like, you're going to lecture me about which of the two games BOTW is more like after you literally said you don't do one of the game's main mechanics because it's too hard a few posts ago.
 
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