Is national birth rate decline inevitable in an industrialized society?

[Shadfan666xxx000]

We have to starting believing a destiny & purpose for humanity again. The only way this seems to happen is a belief in the transcendent AKA God. I know people will hate this but it's just the fucking truth. Scientific Atheism has absolutely wrecked the human spirit. I don't think people (maybe outside of Nietzsche) fully realized how devastating this would be.

When people feel like they have no purpose or meaning in life - they give up. You ever seen someone lose faith in their own existence? It's absolutely crushing. See drug addicts/alcoholics for an example of this. Women in the West have realized that men in the West are giving up & have responded in their own way. I'm not obsolving them of responsibility but these are the facts.

Unfortunately people won't learn until some major castrophe hits or the population decline wrecks our current economic model. Like with people on an individual level, they don't learn until the dire consequences have been felt.

By what practical means would people gain such destinies though? The housing crisis would need to be solved. Without that key, then nobody will feel secure in themselves.

 

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

True. Arranged marriage wouldn't work in the west and NK are the types to fudge numbers but the broader implications for why it's so much more severe in East Asia could lead to workable solutions in the west. Namely, the issue of cultural incentives seems to go hand in hand with housing.

Culture's a hard thing to pass, especially in the globohomo climate of today. Though culture is also a very naturally changing phenomena and if society gets just so fucking depressing, maybe it'll bounce back to tradition naturally. At best, the cultural branch of society can only hold the line for now, hoping it'll become a fad again to actually have some damn respect for one's heritage.

Another thread that is referenced by this same account brings up Atlanta as an example or having a sustainable birthrate by comparison and it seems to have a link with more affordable single family housing as a key factor.

Now that's a way more complicated bag. Some places just have shit density and not enough economic power or too much bureucratic bullshit to spread out. Then again, with the population going down, maybe more space will open up, as long as Blackcock and Co. doesn't buy all the homes up fast enough or be able to hold on to price jumping real estate for too long. The whole world will need to calm the fuck down with the wars and international corporate oligarchs wild westing over the economy for a few years before that shit could even begin to fix itself.

All in all, I'm kinda hopeful, even if things look pretty shit right now.

 

[TheManBehindTheCurtain]

By what practical means would people gain such destinies though? The housing crisis would need to be solved. Without that key, then nobody will feel secure in themselves.

Once again - belief in God & an actual purpose for humanity again. You're asking for some practical solution to a problem that isn't practical. On the surface people should be happier than ever in the West. We have more access to food, sex (in theory) information, & entertainment than we've ever had before and yet people are absolutely miserable. Why is that?

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

Once again - belief in God & an actual purpose for humanity again. You're asking for some practical solution to a problem that isn't practical. On the surface people should be happier than ever in the West. We have more access to food, sex (in theory) information, & entertainment than we've ever had before and yet people are absolutely miserable. Why is that?

Because the things which make it sustainable are harder than ever to procure. Religious feeling and sentiment are important, true. But quality housing, steady nutrition, good education for children and worthwhile investments are also being priced out of the hands of the average working person and that hits the average working person just as hard as a front in the degradation of society.

 

[TheManBehindTheCurtain]

Culture's a hard thing to pass, especially in the globohomo climate of today. Though culture is also a very naturally changing phenomena and if society gets just so fucking depressing, maybe it'll bounce back to tradition naturally. At best, the cultural branch of society can only hold the line for now, hoping it'll become a fad again to actually have some damn respect for one's heritage.

Now that's a way more complicated bag. Some places just have shit density and not enough economic power or too much bureucratic bullshit to spread out. Then again, with the population going down, maybe more space will open up, as long as Blackcock and Co. doesn't buy all the homes up fast enough or be able to hold on to price jumping real estate for too long. The whole world will need to calm the fuck down with the wars and international corporate oligarchs wild westing over the economy for a few years before that shit could even begin to fix itself.

All in all, I'm kinda hopeful, even if things look pretty shit right now.

Unfortunately society is probably going to have to get worse before anything changes substantially. This seems to be the only way people are snapped out of their malaise. When the consequences are too dire & painful to continue that existence.

The move towards radical leftism is at the root of all these problems. When you go a layer deeper - the abandonment of the transcendent is what is ultimately is at the root of all this. Once people no longer believe in something greater than themselves (God) (The True, The beautiful, The Good) then anything becomes permissible & everything is arbitrary.

Because the things which make it sustainable are harder than ever to procure. Religious feeling and sentiment are important, true. But quality housing, steady nutrition, good education for children and worthwhile investments are also being priced out of the hands of the average working person and that hits the average working person just as hard as a front in the degradation of society.

99.9% of people in the past never had access to higher education, abundances of food or quality housing & yet they still continued on & struggled through unimaginable suffering. How do you think they did it?

I'm not saying those things aren't valuable - they are. But they're the byproduct of a civilization built upon certain values than have now been abandoned.

 

[Geddy Lee's Fee and See]

@TheBigRevelator
I agree with your posts but you have to learn not to respond to each individual reply with a new post. Put all your replies in one post so that you don't shit up the thread. You are a newfag, so I'll be easy on you. Just keep this in mind for the future.

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

99.9% of people in the past never had access to higher education, abundances of food or quality housing & yet they still continued on & struggled through unimaginable suffering. How do you think they did it?

I'm not saying those things aren't valuable - they are. But they're the byproduct of a civilization built upon certain values than have now been abandoned.

That's not true, at least not in the way you're thinking. 99% of people may not have gone to 4 year colleges and had a fridge of food to go home to, but they would still have education which prepared them for the world they entered, housing which sufficed to shelter a family and would reliably stay there and would sometimes gather bumper crops with which they could save and sustain themselves. They still had a sense of certainty much of the time that they could grow their livelihoods if they made the right moves and worked carefully. In this sense, we have grown immensely poor, as even those who go to college and immerse themselves in difficult subjects often find themselves struggling for work and underemployed in a world which grows increasingly hostile. Environmental pressures are largely too stifling for people to reasonably advance themselves regardless of religion or cultural pressures.

 

[Neurotypical Mantis]

we're overpopulated with retards, you retards

 

[TheManBehindTheCurtain]

@TheBigRevelator
I agree with your posts but you have to learn not to respond to each individual reply with a new post. Put all your replies in one post so that you don't shit up the thread. You are a newfag, so I'll be easy on you. Just keep this in mind for the future

I apologize, however I'm responding in real time. I'll leave after this response due to a meeting I have soon.

That's not true, at least not in the way you're thinking. 99% of people may not have gone to 4 year colleges and had a fridge of food to go home to, but they would still have education which prepared them for the world they entered, housing which sufficed to shelter a family and would reliably stay there and would sometimes gather bumper crops with which they could save and sustain themselves. They still had a sense of certainty much of the time that they could grow their livelihoods if they made the right moves and worked carefully. In this sense, we have grown immensely poor, as even those who go to college and immerse themselves in difficult subjects often find themselves struggling for work and underemployed in a world which grows increasingly hostile. Environmental pressures are largely too stifling for people to reasonably advance themselves regardless of religion or cultural pressures.

How do you think people lived in the antiquity for the most part? I don't think you realize how destitute materially people's lives were before 300-400 years ago. You're not seeing the forrest for the trees. There was a time where you were lucky if you made it to 30 in human history let alone having housing & a longterm future lol. And yet people still survived & struggled into the future. Purpose is the most fundamental thing to any sufficiently conscious being.

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

How do you think people lived in the antiquity for the most part? I don't think you realize how destitute materially people's lives were before 300-400 years ago. You're not seeing the forrest for the trees. There was a time where you were lucky if you made it to 30 in human history let alone having housing & a longterm future lol. And yet people still survived & struggled into the future. Purpose is the most fundamental thing to any sufficiently conscious being.

Again, you're trying to will the problem out of existing rather than solving what makes people want to have children and feel secure. People can be destitute and have kids if they either don't care or feel like they can support the children as their lived get better. Most people through history were certain their kids would lead lives up to their standard or have better lives than them. No parent wants their children to suffer more than they do relative to themselves. If you want purpose then you need the purpose of having children who can live lives up to par or better than themselves. How do you do that?

 

[frozen_runner]

Plenty of dudes are still able to settle down with women and have children. A bunch of dudes choosing to be losers doesn't mean shit for any country that isn't a small island nation like Japan or the UK.

I am a believer in radical responsibility. It forces you to recognize your agency and to exercise as much of it as you can in any situation. That goes for the dating realm as well.

But, that said, there will be no bootstrapping competition amongst men that will fix the problems created by a combination of:

1) female hypergamy (as definitively observed as an average tendency in women from all cultures), plus

2) a move by women into the workplace (and all other institutions), creating direct competition between men and women for the same jobs, and the subsequent alteration of the workplace to cater to women to the exclusion of men.

"Try harder," is the right message to give to an individual. But it will not result in a positive sea change for all men and all women in the face of these widespread changes. When institutions become geared towards women, men are in trouble. Many of their natural instincts about how to behave (including how to work together) will be "wrong." So they'll tend to move elsewhere if they can (for example, away from higher education as it becomes more feminized and even hostile to masculinity). And if men then move to jobs women don't want or can't do (physical labor, high risk work), and if those jobs are not prestigious or attractive enough to women (because they don't command as much money as they used to), then women have literally priced themselves out of the dating market. This is a serious problem.

And some of the biggest economic issues mentioned in this thread are directly caused by women's move into the workplace and their new focus on career success as a life goal. Demand is what sets prices. Everyone wants a house. Supplies of housing are scare. If people want them badly enough to pay for them with two incomes instead of one (and they do), house prices will rise accordingly, and they'll never come down again to the level of, say, the American 50s. This is a serious problem.

I'm not even really going to go into the low quality of so many modern women who seem proud to be undesirable. You're out of your mind if you think men should bust their asses to become outlier successes to attract fat, resentful single parents.

None of this means men shouldn't pursue self improvement as a way to find happiness, in dating and otherwise. (Everyone on Earth would benefit from doing that.) But the problems we are faced with are serious ones, and they're unparalleled in human history.

 

[Geddy Lee's Fee and See]

I apologize, however I'm responding in real time. I'll leave after this response due to a meeting I have soon.

You're fine. Just trying to give a newfriend some heads up.

Again, you're trying to will the problem out of existing rather than solving what makes people want to have children and feel secure. People can be destitute and have kids if they either don't care or feel like they can support the children as their lived get better. Most people through history were certain their kids would lead lives up to their standard or have better lives than them. No parent wants their children to suffer more than they do relative to themselves. If you want purpose then you need the purpose of having children who can live lives up to par or better than themselves. How do you do that?

I don't know about that. Even during times of greater turmoil and greater material decline than this era, people still had kids even if they weren't sure how the future would end up. The belief that there is a higher purpose in life than pure pleasure-seeking like religion, community and just social bonds that reinforced this belief aren't as readily available to the modern person at all and often we deal with watered down versions of these in the form of parasocial relationships and the prevalence of "polite but not kind" behaviors. I can understand why people just choose not to have kids, but nothing in life is certain and you can't ensure your kids' lives will be better than your own. All you can pass down to them is the lessons/discipline you taught them, the kindness you showed them and the time you spent with them. The problem of not having kids isn't really economic so much as it is spiritual and the modern first-world mindset that puts the acquisition of wealth, power and fame before the true treasures of friends, family and the ability to live, learn and love. I mean, that sounds cheesy, but it is the honest truth and why so many people live fragmented half-lives (for a lack of a better term) that are full of many vapid and empty relationships instead of a full life with a few cherished and meaningful ones.

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

The problem of not having kids isn't really economic so much as it is spiritual and the modern first-world mindset that puts the acquisition of wealth, power and fame before the true treasures of friends, family and the ability to live, learn and love. I mean, that sounds cheesy, but it is the honest truth and why so many people live fragmented half-lives (for a lack of a better term) that are full of many vapid and empty relationships instead of a full life with a few cherished and meaningful ones

I'm not entirely disputing this point but where are you raising these kids? Where do you go if you're homeless with kids and need a new job to start things over and provide them with a house after your shit gets pushed in? Even in the 30 years war, you could fall into marauding and banditry but what does a working class family do now?

 

[TheManBehindTheCurtain]

Again, you're trying to will the problem out of existing rather than solving what makes people want to have children and feel secure. People can be destitute and have kids if they either don't care or feel like they can support the children as their lived get better. Most people through history were certain their kids would lead lives up to their standard or have better lives than them. No parent wants their children to suffer more than they do relative to themselves. If you want purpose then you need the purpose of having children who can live lives up to par or better than themselves. How do you do that?

Do you honestly believe humans in the stone age knew that their children's lives would be better than theirs? Do you believe peasants or slaves thought this? You're a prison of your modern worldview brother. Not saying I disagree with decreased quality of life compared to say Boomers but we face deeper problems than just a halt to ever increasing living standards. Standards which are unsustainable on a global level. On some level the population going down is probably a form of equilibrium that eventually will level out (hopefully). Unfortunately our economics are built upon ever increasing growth/proft economic models that have limits. I'm not a Marxist or anything btw.


Eventually we'll have to get back to what values really matter after said economic decline/decay/collapse that immigrants can't paper over. Similar to how Europe had to reform after the fall of The Western Roman Empire/Rome & the proceeding tragedies from that event on.

Ok now I'll stop shitting up the board lol. I'm done.

 

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

Do you honestly believe humans in the stone age knew that their children's lives would be better than theirs? Do you believe peasants or slaves thought this? You're a prison of your modern worldview brother.

"It's your duty to have children so they can have a life significantly worse than the one you're already ambivalent about."

 

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

Unfortunately society is probably going to have to get worse before anything changes substantially. This seems to be the only way people are snapped out of their malaise. When the consequences are too dire & painful to continue that existence.

The move towards radical leftism is at the root of all these problems. When you go a layer deeper - the abandonment of the transcendent is what is ultimately is at the root of all this. Once people no longer believe in something greater than themselves (God) (The True, The beautiful, The Good) then anything becomes permissible & everything is arbitrary.

Then they should read the Old Testament and see where that leads.
As the old saying goes, fuck around and find out.

 

[SpergioLeonne]

"It's your duty to have children so they can have a life significantly worse than the one you're already ambivalent about."

The overwhelmingly vast majority of human beings who ever lived on earth have had it worse than we do.

Whoops, broken bone.. infection, death. Yay, got laid! Infection, death. Alternatively, woman and child die during childbirth. Man, I’m hungry! Better walk around looking for random ass plants to try to eat. Whoops, that one was poison! Alternatively, you have to shake the fucking seeds out of funny looking grass, collect them into a pile, grind them between stones and THEN you can get some carbs out of them.

Fuck, my baby got eaten by an animal. Fuck, I got eaten by an animal. Fuck, and insect burrowed into me and is eating me, maybe I can cut off the part it’s eating? Shit, what’s this black lump on me? Whoops, half of my city is dead

On and on and on and on and on

Harden the fuck up

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

The overwhelmingly vast majority of human beings who ever lived on earth have had it worse than we do.

Whoops, broken bone.. infection, death. Yay, got laid! Infection, death. Alternatively, woman and child die during childbirth. Man, I’m hungry! Better walk around looking for random ass plants to try to eat. Whoops, that one was poison! Alternatively, you have to shake the fucking seeds out of funny looking grass, collect them into a pile, grind them between stones and THEN you can get some carbs out of them.

Fuck, my baby got eaten by an animal. Fuck, I got eaten by an animal. Fuck, and insect burrowed into me and is eating me, maybe I can cut off the part it’s eating? Shit, what’s this black lump on me? Whoops, half of my city is dead

On and on and on and on and on

Harden the fuck up

Ok, boomer.

 

[SpergioLeonne]

Ok, factory worker

Ftfy

 

[HOMO FOR LIFE RETURNS]

Having children has always been and will always be an innate biological function of human biology. Unfortunately, we have created a multitude of ways to divert our biological impulses into quick and easy releases. Women now receive all the care and attention for free on interwebs and social media. Men no longer offer any value to parasitic creatures we call women.

In the end, we have become the victim of our own successes.