Is national birth rate decline inevitable in an industrialized society?

[God of Nothing]

We are incentivising the grifters to breed and replacing the native population and wondering why no one wants to breed.

better import more grifters
surely they'll replace the actual producing class

 

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

But places in Scandinavia manage it and they don’t have much higher taxes than we do.

And Scandinavia has very low birthrates and they continue to fall, despite those gibs. I appreciate that such policy might help your friend who has a strong intrinsic drive to procreate regardless of financial incentives, but it doesn't seem to have significant effect on societies as a whole.

 

[Otterly]

And Scandinavia has very low birthrates and they continue to fall, despite those gibs. I appreciate that such policy might help your friend who has a strong intrinsic drive to procreate regardless of financial incentives, but it doesn't seem to have significant effect on societies as a whole.

Sweden has a 1.85 ish per woman rate and the uk has 1.5 ish. Significant difference.
I think industrialisation craters rates - I am sure on here someone made a post a year or two back about city vs country birth rates and I am sure the fertility rate in the city was catastrophic, like 0.17 or something. The city can only survive with constant immigration from the surrounding countryside. I’ll see if I can find the post…
Perhaps then it’s inevitable past a certain point of urbanisation, and a certain proportion in the cities vs the country than simply industrialisation. But just speaking from my own circle, almost every woman wanted more kids, and almost all have 1/2/3 only. It would be interesting to break down fertility rates by county and give each county an index of how urban/city/rural it is.

 

[God of Nothing]

We just live in a mentally ill society. I don't mean that in reference to the growing mental illnesses but the actual way our society functions. You are expected to be constantly happy and focused to the point you are put on drugs by our so called experts, even if you are a literal child. Homosexuality and sexual deviancy are encouraged. Open displays of heterosexuality are demonized while flaunting sexual deviancy in front of children is praised. We say not to follow sex roles while still expecting and shaming each other for following and not following sex roles. Men dressed as women are supposed to be regarded as the same as women yet above them. Our lives are expected to be wasted on indulgences yet somehow fulfilled. You are supposed to be moral yet spit on anything that espouses itself as true morality or grounds itself on tenants. Everyone is equal except in the ways they're different. That is a contradictory statement yet many here would still say it is valid or live by that contradiction.

What growth is meant to take place here? In what world does anyone living in a society like this prosper? All I can see everywhere I look is dysfunction and decline. Things are getting to the point I don't even want to argue with people because their babbling is exactly that, babbling. Average people have become mentally ill. What use is there trying to talk sense into someone who has no idea what sense is anymore? You cannot debate objective truth with someone who does not believe in objective truth. If they're not mentally ill, they're at least demoralized, and you still cannot discuss anything of actual note with these "people."

 

[AgendaPoster]

Once we'll get artificial wombs, women will beg to be birthing machines.

 

[God of Nothing]

Once we'll get artificial wombs, women will beg to be birthing machines.

whether it's artificial wombs or whatever nonsense about women impregnating themselves with their own bone marrow or whatever
this kind of thing is born from an actual hatred of the opposite sex
like, i want you to be dependent on my existence and beg for my love kind of retarded hatred
the implication being they'd abort or choose not to have any offspring of the opposite sex if either could conceive independently

this line of thinking is retarded and everyone following it should take a moment to relax, in short

 

[AgendaPoster]

this kind of thing is born from an actual hatred of the opposite sex

I'm actually guided by a desire to have a functional welfare state that can muster a half-decent army to defend the nation if needed.
If women feel like they don't wanna play the role of raising new generations, we'll fix that as we can.
And the consequences will be dire for women, not men.

 

[The Ugly One]

Should populations grow forever? If birthrates are declining, that may be more a sign of equilibrium more than anything else.

Birth rates are declining throughout the industrialized world irrespective of population density. They are very low in dense cities, but they're also low in small towns and villages.

If you give a woman something more interesting to do in her twenties than give birth, well, she's probably going to. Nobody's figured out how to industrialize and not decide that women are better off in the office than the kitchen. Currently, being 23 is such an overload of stimulus that for both men and women, a baby would be a massive setback.

It appears to be inevitable, as the social and moral changes necessary for industrialization lead to devaluing home and family life. In an industrial society, a "good man" isn't one with four kids that have been raised reasonably well, it's a man who has burned the midnight oil building out his startup and flipping it for $100m by the time he's thirty-five years old.

And if that's what a good man is, what is a good woman? Well...uh...I guess it's one who stays in school, preferably until she's 25, and devotes her youth to the service of her employer and the creation of GDP.

 

[God of Nothing]

Currently, being 23 is such an overload of stimulus that for both men and women, a baby would be a massive setback.

I could not think of a more fulfilling thing than bringing life into this world and nurturing it into something beautiful and better than you are at that age.
but that's just me, i guess

 

[Real Fakeman]

Declining birth rate is a problem literally only if room temperature IQ retards from shithole countries are imported replace the natives in an attempt to "fix" the "problem". 200 years ago the population of my country was less than 1/5 of what it is today, and we weren't exactly going extinct then. The birth rate today isn't 0, it's 1.7 or whatever. It's not going to stay at 1.7 until the very last 0.7 of a norwegian is born from the last remaining woman. The population might stabilize at a lower number, or maybe even climb again because of some unforeseen change. But the population obviously can't grow forever. I don't want all of the country to be paved over so that we can build more bughives to house a giant population anyway. I can't stand it when people are such drama queens and talk as if we are already extinct because someone auto-extrapolated a trend in excel. It's a "problem" because it makes the politicians precious welfare state unsustainable in the long run. Well fuck the welfare state. We lived here just fine for ~11 000 years without it. Just don't flood the country with shitty foreign retards and we will be absolutely fine, I promise you.

 

[Odd Opossum]

if you want your society to survive, the only way to do it is to not allow women to make that choice at all.

Plenty of dudes are still able to settle down with women and have children. A bunch of dudes choosing to be losers doesn't mean shit for any country that isn't a small island nation like Japan or the UK.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

I think industrialisation craters rates - I am sure on here someone made a post a year or two back about city vs country birth rates and I am sure the fertility rate in the city was catastrophic, like 0.17 or something. The city can only survive with constant immigration from the surrounding countryside. I’ll see if I can find the post…

It's pretty much always been that way with cities, in times past they were also a demographic sink due to diseases and poor conditions with the population maintained by migration from rural areas. Basically the tradeoff was more economic opportunities in exchange for a higher risk of death especially if you were poor.

 

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

And the consequences will be dire for women, not men.

If there are dire consequences for half the world's population, there will necessarily be dire consequences for the other half.

Much to the chagrin of both incels and militant feminists, men and women aren't two siloed groups that can function independently of each other.

 

[AgendaPoster]

If there are dire consequences for half the world's population, there will necessarily be dire consequences for the other half.

Not necessarily.
Reproduction here is the key. Demographics hold the key.
Women that could develop enough tech to fend of hordes of violent men while keeping some for their sperm would also be pretty OK.
The thing is, men are the ones with the weapons, the bloodlust, the hornt, and the desire to explore the unknown - in average.

 

[gang weeder]

If there are dire consequences for half the world's population, there will necessarily be dire consequences for the other half.

Much to the chagrin of both incels and militant feminists, men and women aren't two siloed groups that can function independently of each other.

They actually can, reproduction aside. And with the rise of surrogacy you don't even need to interact with the woman for that, if you don't want to. Gays are leading the way on this.

Not saying it's a good idea, in fact much the opposite. But it is definitely possible for men to exist in a woman-free environment if they want to and get along just fine.

 

[Ser Prize]

Short answer is that yes it seems inevitable as there are no examples that I am aware of where a country industrialized without its birth rate declining.

I think this isn't necessarily a bad thing, the reason people don't like it is that it seems to correlate with a loss of national identity in general. But in theory, there's nothing wrong with only the religious having lots of kids, and most atheist liberals having none. In fact that seems like a highly desirable trend. I'm totally fine with leftists not passing on their genes.

The problem of a population shrink isn't the actual shrinking. It's that when it happens invariably people go about importing the rest of the world to fill it, which is basically demographic suicide, and unlike mere shrinking it can't be easily reversed.

Birth rates are declining throughout the industrialized world irrespective of population density. They are very low in dense cities, but they're also low in small towns and villages.

If you give a woman something more interesting to do in her twenties than give birth, well, she's probably going to. Nobody's figured out how to industrialize and not decide that women are better off in the office than the kitchen. Currently, being 23 is such an overload of stimulus that for both men and women, a baby would be a massive setback.

It appears to be inevitable, as the social and moral changes necessary for industrialization lead to devaluing home and family life. In an industrial society, a "good man" isn't one with four kids that have been raised reasonably well, it's a man who has burned the midnight oil building out his startup and flipping it for $100m by the time he's thirty-five years old.

And if that's what a good man is, what is a good woman? Well...uh...I guess it's one who stays in school, preferably until she's 25, and devotes her youth to the service of her employer and the creation of GDP.

When you lay it all out it's all just a gigantic corporate slave state, isn't it?

Plenty of dudes are still able to settle down with women and have children. A bunch of dudes choosing to be losers doesn't mean shit for any country that isn't a small island nation like Japan or the UK.

Yes, that's why like 40% of men aged 18 - 30 are virgins. Totally healthy.

 

[The Ugly One]

When you lay it all out it's all just a gigantic corporate slave state, isn't it?

It's freedom and liberation is what it is. End your bloodline to create GDP, and you will know true freedom.

 

[N Space]

The issue with low birthrates isn't that the population will get smaller, the issue is that the demography gets fucked and you end up in a society full of useless geezers and few working class people; from an individual standpoint just ask, who will care for you when you become older and can no longer take care of yourself if not your children?

 

[Shroom King]

Not all population is a racist, but all racists are part of the population. Checkmate, atheists.

 

[Felis Meanis]

The demographic collapse can, in large parts, be explained by the incredible number of dumb women who amazingly believe that they could, and should, score with chad, despite being slovenly slags who's a 5/10 on a good day.

The lack of women being told in sufficient capacity that they behave like whores, and should stop flaunting around their panty girdles to whomsoever is the highest bidder on a wet saturday night, is really the ultimate cause for the societal and moral collapse currently unfolding.

Women are the arbiters of procreation, unfortunately. They certainly shouldn't be from a moral perspective, but whenever has evolution cared abour morals? The crude tool women used to wield, which is putting men against their brothers by enticing them with their repugnant vags, no longer works as a measurement of genetic faculty, and so we need to shape society to get around this perverse development.

The fact that retarded whores had the audacity to engage in the White Feather Campaign should give every man pause. The underlying sentiment that gave rise to these strumpets is by no means gone in any capacity.