Is national birth rate decline inevitable in an industrialized society?

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

Kids aren't expensive, unless you want to minmax your kid that it looks like to be the case in the middle class of first and second world countries.
It is more of a shift in mindset than anything else, really.

Unless you have a strong intrinsic desire to have a kid, they're nothing but expense and a minimum of 18 years of state-enforced obligation.

 

[pot of sneed]

Birth is going to be mandatory in several countries soon. Probably China first with the threat they made to inseminate women if birth rates don't go up. The United States will likely ban abortion but they won't be able to implement mandatory birth so easily.

This is going to be ridiculously stupid and impossible to enforce. Short of chaining women down and amputating their limbs like some sort of fucked up dystopian dark fantasy, you cannot enforce such insane levels of control on half the population. Forcibly inseminate women? Okay, are you planning on watching them 24/7? During birth and after birth? Who is going to cover the costs? You're going to add insult to injury by making these women pay for it all? And ofc absolutely no woman will ever start feeling massive fucking resentment about being reduced to breeding stock. A lot of 'mysterious' infant deaths will happen, because what are you going to do to punish them? Kill your women? Great. No more women, no more babies. China can't even make half-decent stuff without cutting every corner they can and somehow they are going to do this to all their girls lol.

 

[Law]

The low birth rate comes from the monster that is feminism

Women don't have lots of children because we're built more for survival than exploration

So which one is it? Does "the monster that is feminism" make women not want to have kids? Or does being "built more for survival" do it?
Personally, I think that exploration, risk-taking, and physical bravery are big parts of choosing to undergo pregnancy and birth.

Unless you have a strong intrinsic desire to have a kid, they're nothing but expense and a minimum of 18 years of state-enforced obligation.

I agree. People shouldn't have kids unless they really, really want them.

 

[Prokhor Zakharov]

Feminism was the greatest deceit The Devil ever sold the Western world on.

 

[Sweetpeaa]

This is going to be ridiculously stupid and impossible to enforce. Short of chaining women down and amputating their limbs like some sort of fucked up dystopian dark fantasy, you cannot enforce such insane levels of control on half the population. Forcibly inseminate women? Okay, are you planning on watching them 24/7? During birth and after birth? Who is going to cover the costs? You're going to add insult to injury by making these women pay for it all? And ofc absolutely no woman will ever start feeling massive fucking resentment about being reduced to breeding stock. A lot of 'mysterious' infant deaths will happen, because what are you going to do to punish them? Kill your women? Great. No more women, no more babies. China can't even make half-decent stuff without cutting every corner they can and somehow they are going to do this to all their girls lol.

Nonsense. China already has a secret slave class of people just like North Korea. They are a known human rights violator. Forced pregnancies are not that hard to believe over there. They used to do forced abortions there when over population was an issue.

 

[ZeCommissar]

Nonsense. China already has a secret slave class of people just like North Korea. They are a known human rights violator. Forced pregnancies are not that hard to believe over there. They used to do forced abortions there when over population was an issue.

Hmm.

I could see an authoritarian regime with people that have been used to authoritarian rule for a thousand years like China trying to autistically implement this and failing like they did with the One Child policy. I will give you that.

But exactly how do you expect a western nation like the US and its vassal states to implement such a policy? Good luck ever getting re-elected in 50 years once your platform of "spread your legs and pop it out bitch!" comes out. Not even pro lifers want this shit since not only would it massively increase attempted abortions illegal or otherwise, but it honestly wouldn't fix anything. The single motherhood rates would skyrocket past the fucking moon more than its already have, and add on top of that the woman was pretty much raped to have the kid and we're looking at an extremely fucked up society. You think the welfare state is bad now?

Just let the population decline and stop importing the infinite third world. Its literally that simple. So what some old people that decided not saving up for retirement are going to live very shitty lives. Hell you lived for 60-80 years anyway, just grab the rope because you can't even be taken care of because there's literally no one to take care of you that's younger without going to the hive nursing home with 500 residents and 8 nurses. Maybe people will learn to not make the same mistake as boomers and actually have a plan for retirement. Then once the old fuckers die off, and the population takes a massive dip maybe things actually get better for those who remain and they will have better incentives to have kids. Pretty much what happened in Europe after the black death wiped out a bunch of people.

Seems harsh? Well honestly this viewpoint seems far less harsher and more realistic than just forcibly impregnating women. Of course the Powers That Be don't want to do this because they would lose money, and their agendas.

 

[Breadbassket]

Spain and Sweden are having some fertility rate issues.

Spanish birth rate hits lowest level since records began in 1941​

Spain's birth rate has dropped to its lowest level since records started in 1941, provisional data from its National Statistics Institute (INE) showed on Wednesday, with just 322,075 babies adding to the country's population of 48.6 million in 2023.

Last year's Spanish birth rate was down 2% compared with 2022, adding to a drop of almost 25% in a decade. This decline has left Spain with the second lowest fertility rate in the European Union, Eurostat data from 2021 shows, lagging Malta.

Eurostat's data showed the rate in Spain at 1.19 live births per woman compared to the EU average of 1.53, both far short of the 2.1 at which existing population levels would be maintained.

Demographers and economists have urged Europe to rethink attempts to boost its flagging birth rate and some Spanish regions have introduced financial measures and tax deductions to encourage people to start families.

"It is true that childbearing is no longer a generalised life aspiration. Women want to have a career, people want to do certain things before they start a family," Marta Seiz, a Madrid-based university professor specialised in family sociology, demography and inequality, told Reuters.

Economic uncertainty, unemployment, low-quality jobs and soaring housing prices are some of the reasons why Spaniards were either getting pregnant later or having fewer children than they had originally intended, Seiz added.

Although Spain has equalised policies of paternity and maternity leave, Seiz said the measures are still insufficient.

INE said the decline in births was linked to a delay in the age of childbearing, with the number of women over 40 giving birth rising by 19.3% in the last decade. This age group now give birth to around 10.7% of all children, versus 6.8% in 2013.

Mothers aged under 25 fell by 26% in the same period, representing just 9.4% of the total.

Article Link

Sweden's population growth slowest in 22 years as fertility rate drops to record low​

Sweden's fertility rate is at an all-time low, with experts warning that the working population could eventually start to shrink.​

Sweden's population grew by 30,200 people to 10.5 million last year, the smallest population increase in absolute terms since 2001, official statistics showed on Thursday, as the country has sought to curb immigration.

A combination of "a decrease in the number of births, a lower number of immigrations as well as a higher number of emigrations are the reasons for the lower population increase during 2023 compared to previous years," Statistics Sweden said.

According to the agency, 94,500 people immigrated to Sweden last year, an eight percent decrease from the previous year, while 73,400 people emigrated from the country, a 45 percent increase.

The coalition government, led by Ulf Kristersson of the Moderate Party but relying on the support of the anti-immigration Sweden Democrats, has pledged to limit migration since coming to power in 2022.

Part of the explanation, however, is that the Swedish Tax Agency last year began a huge project to deregister several thousands of people who no longer live in Sweden from the population register. They are now formally in the books as having emigrated to an unknown country.

At the same time, the fertility rate in the Scandinavian country is at an all-time low, at 1.45 children per woman last year, according to the statistics agency. A total of 100,100 births were recorded last year.

Experts say that if the trend continues, the working population will eventually start to shrink, putting a strain on the country's welfare system.
Nordic countries still have some of the highest fertility rates in Europe, according to Eurostat's most recent data.

In 2021, Sweden's fertility rate was 1.67 children per woman, above the EU average of 1.53 and significantly higher than countries in southern Europe such as Spain, which had a fertility rate of 1.19.

Those rates are well below the threshold of 2.1 that experts say is needed to maintain population levels.

Article Link

 

[Felis Meanis]

Once we'll get artificial wombs, women will beg to be birthing machines.

I believe you might be right, but they would never allow such a technological marvel on account on their diminishing societal power. Just look at the typical reaction amongst females against male contraceptives. Women will fight tooth and nail against such a thing, despite it "freeing" them of "mens oppression" and the ability to go all in regarding the pursuit of a career, as feminism is ostensibly about.

Women know that if they lose the bargaining chip that is their womb and fertility, they lose all special value, and have to compete on the societal stage on the same conditions that a man does. They know that an artificial womb would mark the end of their life on easy mode, and a harsh push into the bleak and unforgiving hard mode of life that is the reality for men.

Womens howling regarding men ditching them for not wanting children, even in their thirties, and choosing younger prospects to form a family with, is already immensely enjoyable to spectate. The relentless howling that will result from the introduction of the artificial womb will be particularly delicious. It's a given that such an invention will see the light of day, by the way. The economic and logistical benefits of artificial wombs are simply too great to ignore, for any nation. I'd hazard a guess that China and nations like it will be the first to apply them in significant numbers.

 

[AgendaPoster]

I believe you might be right, but they would never allow such a technological marvel on account on their diminishing societal power. Just look at the typical reaction amongst females against male contraceptives. Women will fight tooth and nail against such a thing, despite it "freeing" them of "mens oppression" and the ability to go all in regarding the pursuit of a career, as feminism is ostensibly about.

Women seem to have a disproportionate amount of power in the West at this time, because almost everyone is retarded and afraid to look to the disastrous near future that is coming. The demographic collapse, which is undeniable and not reversible through mass migration, is a national security issue and threat, basically. In the very near future (5 yrs tops) our elites will need to find solutions to this, and keep the state alive somehow. Unless some new tech saves us, we will slowly lose more and more welfare state/benefits, the taxes will grow, inflation will grow, and our purchasing power will decrease, all because there won't be a sizable working class youth generation to produce and consume.
No civilized country is safe from this. US is safer, but Europe, Japan, S.Korea, Russia, China are in deep, deep trouble.
And I think China will do what it has to do, as state survival there is not a joke like for Europeans, and they will be serious about fixing the demographic bomb.
I'm somewhat surprised it's not talked about more often here.
The demographic collapse is probably the most important issue for the next 50 yrs. There are literally no good predictions, regardless of expert. Most are incredibly dire, from full statehood loss for countries like Germany, to Weimar-like inflation and economic collapse, wars over whatever remains and so on.
And women won't have any say in this. Their arguments will be completely ignored as soon as something serious happens. Women "rights" are a luxury afforded by Western, safe cultures, and will disappear together with the evaporating prosperity.

 

[Breadbassket]

New births in Japan fall to record low in 2023.

Japan's new births fall to record low in 2023 as demographic woes deepen​

The number of babies born in Japan fell for an eighth straight year to a fresh record low in 2023, preliminary government data showed on Tuesday (Feb 27), underscoring the daunting task the country faces in trying to stem depopulation.

The number of births fell 5.1 per cent from a year earlier to 758,631, while the number of marriages slid 5.9 per cent to 489,281 - the first time in 90 years the number fell below 500,000 - foreboding a further decline in the population as out-of-wedlock births are rare in Japan.

Asked about the latest data, Japan's top government spokesperson said the government will take "unprecedented steps" to cope with the declining birthrate, such as expanding childcare and promoting wage hikes for younger workers.

"The declining birthrate is in a critical situation," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshimasa Hayashi told reporters. "The next six years or so until 2030, when the number of young people will rapidly decline, will be the last chance to reverse the trend."

Mindful of the potential social and economic impact, and the strains on public finances, Prime Minister Fumio Kishida has called the trend the "gravest crisis our country faces", and unveiled a range of steps to support child-bearing households late last year.

Japan's population will likely decline by about 30 per cent to 87 million by 2070, with four out of every 10 people aged 65 or older, according to estimates by the National Institute of Population and Social Security Research.

Article Link

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

I'm not sure how much culture could affect things but there is an argument for the birthrate decline being primarily economic. I found this Twitter thread that I think could spur discussion.

https://twitter.com/MoreBirths/status/1761807375143411722

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

Unless you have a strong intrinsic desire to have a kid, they're nothing but expense and a minimum of 18 years of state-enforced obligation.

Kids are your greatest asset. Not just in life, but in finance too. That's why the poor as shit people had dozens of them. Fuck off with this anti-natalism bullcrap. The excuse of "kids are too expensive" is just that, an excuse. Your grandparents and great grandparents were happy to give up creature comforts to provide a slightly better life for their children.

 

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

I'm not sure how much culture could affect things but there is an argument for the birthrate decline being primarily economic. I found this Twitter thread that I think could spur discussion.

https://twitter.com/MoreBirths/status/1761807375143411722

Wyświetl załącznik 5761662Wyświetl załącznik 5761665Wyświetl załącznik 5761667Wyświetl załącznik 5761668Wyświetl załącznik 5761669Wyświetl załącznik 5761671Wyświetl załącznik 5761672Wyświetl załącznik 5761673Wyświetl załącznik 5761674Wyświetl załącznik 5761675Wyświetl załącznik 5761676Wyświetl załącznik 5761677Wyświetl załącznik 5761679Wyświetl załącznik 5761680

Two caveats.
I wouldn't trust any shit stats that come from North Korea.
And arranged marriage bullshit will never work in the west.

 

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

Kids are your greatest asset. Not just in life, but in finance too. That's why the poor as shit people had dozens of them.

Poor as shit people were farmers and a lot of kids directly contributed to labor on that farm. That hasn't been the case for most people for several generations now. Children produce minimal useful labor and no longer take over the farm when you're old.

I don't know why you would skip over that context that's all over this thread and then throw a gay little hissy fit over it.

 

[TheManBehindTheCurtain]

I believe you might be right, but they would never allow such a technological marvel on account on their diminishing societal power. Just look at the typical reaction amongst females against male contraceptives. Women will fight tooth and nail against such a thing, despite it "freeing" them of "mens oppression" and the ability to go all in regarding the pursuit of a career, as feminism is ostensibly about.

Women know that if they lose the bargaining chip that is their womb and fertility, they lose all special value, and have to compete on the societal stage on the same conditions that a man does. They know that an artificial womb would mark the end of their life on easy mode, and a harsh push into the bleak and unforgiving hard mode of life that is the reality for men.

Womens howling regarding men ditching them for not wanting children, even in their thirties, and choosing younger prospects to form a family with, is already immensely enjoyable to spectate. The relentless howling that will result from the introduction of the artificial womb will be particularly delicious. It's a given that such an invention will see the light of day, by the way. The economic and logistical benefits of artificial wombs are simply too great to ignore, for any nation. I'd hazard a guess that China and nations like it will be the first to apply them in significant numbers.

Jesus. The antipathy between men & women is at an all-time high. This post is a perfect showcase for that. Unfortunately this is what leftism has inculcated by promoting Feminism & the hatred of men for years.

I'm not sure how much culture could affect things but there is an argument for the birthrate decline being primarily economic. I found this Twitter thread that I think could spur discussion.

https://twitter.com/MoreBirths/status/1761807375143411722

Wyświetl załącznik 5761662Wyświetl załącznik 5761665Wyświetl załącznik 5761667Wyświetl załącznik 5761668Wyświetl załącznik 5761669Wyświetl załącznik 5761671Wyświetl załącznik 5761672Wyświetl załącznik 5761673Wyświetl załącznik 5761674Wyświetl załącznik 5761675Wyświetl załącznik 5761676Wyświetl załącznik 5761677Wyświetl załącznik 5761679Wyświetl załącznik 5761680

Fundamentally the problem goes back to a lack of belief in God & intrinsic human values. I sure hope it was worth it to destroy all tradition and culture. Hope the consequence free sex was worth it!

Poor as shit people were farmers and a lot of kids directly contributed to labor on that farm. That hasn't been the case for most people for several generations now. Children produce minimal useful labor and no longer take over the farm when you're old.

I don't know why you would skip over that context that's all over this thread and then throw a gay little hissy fit over it.

A life without children or some type of broader service to your community/humanity is utterly pointless. Cope all you want, degenerate.

 

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

A life without children or some type of broader service to your community/humanity

Conflating reproduction with "service to your community" demonstrates that you clearly haven't met most people or their kids.

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

Two caveats.
I wouldn't trust any shit stats that come from North Korea.
And arranged marriage bullshit will never work in the west.

True. Arranged marriage wouldn't work in the west and NK are the types to fudge numbers but the broader implications for why it's so much more severe in East Asia could lead to workable solutions in the west. Namely, the issue of cultural incentives seems to go hand in hand with housing. Another thread that is referenced by this same account brings up Atlanta as an example or having a sustainable birthrate by comparison and it seems to have a link with more affordable single family housing as a key factor.

Fundamentally the problem goes back to a lack of belief in God & intrinsic human values. I sure hope it was worth it to destroy all tradition and culture. Hope the consequence free sex was worth it!

That may be part of the case but it's not the sole factor. There's more going on, else we wouldn't have countries where Christianity never took majority hold didn't manage to go through the issue.

 

[TheManBehindTheCurtain]

True. Arranged marriage wouldn't work in the west and NK are the types to fudge numbers but the broader implications for why it's so much more severe in East Asia could lead to workable solutions in the west. Namely, the issue of cultural incentives seems to go hand in hand with housing. Another thread that is referenced by this same account brings up Atlanta as an example or having a sustainable birthrate by comparison and it seems to have a link with more affordable single family housing as a key factor.

That may be part of the case but it's not the sole factor. There's more going on, else we wouldn't have countries where Christianity never took majority hold didn't manage to go through the issue.

Just because a population claims to be religious doesn't mean they actually are. Christianity culturally has been dead in the West for a while. Most "Christians" don't live their values whatsoever. Men on some level need to take responsibility for pushing social liberalism for consequence free sex. This is just a fact.

When you don't believe in intrinsic human value - why would you procreate? If you want to have a hedonistic lifestyle, why would you want kids? The problem is the West has no purpose anymore outside of harm reduction & the mitigation of suffering. The logical end result of that being nihilism & ultimately anti-natalism. I think this largely stems from men losing confidence in their destiny and women responding in kind.

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

Just because a population claims to be religious doesn't mean they actually are. Christianity culturally has been dead in the West for a while. Most "Christians" don't live their values whatsoever. Men on some level need to take responsibility for pushing social liberalism for consequence free sex. This is just a fact.

When you don't believe in intrinsic human value - why would you procreate? If you want to have a hedonistic lifestyle, why would you want kids? The problem is the West has no purpose anymore outside of harm reduction & the mitigation of suffering. The logical end result of that being nihilism & ultimately anti-natalism. I think this largely stems from men losing confidence in their destiny and women responding in kind.

So, how do you give it back to them? Speaking practically and in spiritual terms?

 

[TheManBehindTheCurtain]

So, how do you give it back to them? Speaking practically and in spiritual terms?

We have to starting believing a destiny & purpose for humanity again. The only way this seems to happen is a belief in the transcendent AKA God. I know people will hate this but it's just the fucking truth. Scientific Atheism has absolutely wrecked the human spirit. I don't think people (maybe outside of Nietzsche) fully realized how devastating this would be.

When people feel like they have no purpose or meaning in life - they give up. You ever seen someone lose faith in their own existence? It's absolutely crushing. See drug addicts/alcoholics for an example of this. Women in the West have realized that men in the West are giving up & have responded in their own way. I'm not obsolving them of responsibility but these are the facts.

Unfortunately people won't learn until some major castrophe hits or the population decline wrecks our current economic model. Like with people on an individual level, they don't learn until the dire consequences have been felt.