Was celibacy for clergymen a good idea?

[wtfNeedSignUp]

I get the religious justifications but in practice the end result is that holy places are consistently infiltrated by chomos/failsons who engage in raping anyone younger than them.

 

[Stabby_Pencil]

Weren't they originally castrated?

 

[Soycast II]

I’d argue that it makes no difference. Public school teachers rape more kids and they can have all the sex they want. And plus, even if clergy could have sex, they’d need to be married and while I don’t know all the inner workings of it I’d imagine that being a priest is a pretty demanding full time job. Can’t devote all that time to both the priesthood and a wife and kids.

 

[Pedophobe]

Breaking the inheritance/family business paradigm and establishing the basis of corporate meritocracy as we know it was probably a good thing and there likely wasn't a better way to realistically achieve that, so I'll go with yes.

 

[Staticness]

Breaking the inheritance/family business paradigm and establishing the basis of corporate meritocracy as we know it was probably a good thing and there likely wasn't a better way to realistically achieve that, so I'll go with yes.

Counterpoint: The Borgias.

 

[Pedophobe]

Counterpoint: The Borgias.

The fact that people had to circumvent the system in order to corrupt it proves it was the right decision in the first place.

Domestic espionage is illegal but we don't* use Watergate as an example of why it shouldn't be.

*Okay some of us might but you know what those people are like.

 

[Staticness]

The fact that people had to circumvent the system in order to corrupt it proves it was the right decision in the first place.

Domestic espionage is illegal but we don't* use Watergate as an example of why it shouldn't be.

*Okay some of us might but you know what those people are like.

The fact the system was so easily compromised at all meant it would always be a "rules for thee" situation no matter what. And Watergate was the state punishing the President for using espionage only they should have access to (according to themselves).

 

[Bioniclelover]

It was good idea in short term for the time period it was introduced to curb inheritance problems, but a bad idea long term as celibacy is probably the greatest obstacle for priesthood in modern times.

 

[Otis Mallebrok]

Martin Luther was right again

 

[The Ugly One]

I get the religious justifications

Note that the actual religious justification is that sex stains your soul with corruption. All the modern arguments are a thousand years ex post facto.

It was good idea in short term for the time period it was introduced to curb inheritance problems

It started out with an order by the pope to his loyal subjects to kidnap the priests' wives and children and sell them as sex slaves to Muslims. It was evil from day one.

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

Breaking the inheritance/family business paradigm and establishing the basis of corporate meritocracy as we know it was probably a good thing and there likely wasn't a better way to realistically achieve that, so I'll go with yes.

Correct. It was to keep the power within the religious institution, not bloodlines and family. It ensured that men from all backgrounds could climb the ranks. (There was a long tradition of sending the son 3 or 4 from a noble family (or oldest if the family wealth had dissipated) into the priesthood to obtain power that way since the eldest sons had dibs on titles and inheritance.)

The unintended effect was that became an outlet for many faithful gay young men and women. Young homosexuals who were faithful/ traditional minded knew they would be expected to marry and be fruitful and multiply. The best way to avoid this with god’s approval was to join the church where marriage was forbidden and you got to live in segregated sex spaces!

I don’t think the celibacy vow has anything to do with pedos. Pedos always look for roles to get access and authority over kids - coaches, camp counselors, Boy Scout leaders, teachers, etc… Priests were just another option.

Where I grew up the Catholic priests were fine, it was the evangelical and Baptist “youth pastors” who kept getting caught molesting kids. These pedos were usually married men with kids of their own (one specifically was caught because he was molesting the friends of his own children). All the church-pedo scandals I recall happening in my region, they all involved married men who were pastors or church leaders of some type.
(I lived in a Bible Belt region so you had far more Protestant congregations than Catholic)

 

[Blasterisk]

religious justifications

It's not a religious purity thing, it's that bishops/cardinals/etc. kept inheriting titles/land and were becoming a de facto aristocracy. If you can't marry, then you can't have legitimate children to inherit your titles by, no matter how many bastards you sire.

Everything actually in the Bible (which bishops and cardinals do not tend to read very much of) explicitly states that church leaders may be married, and Peter himself had a mother-in-law who Jesus healed. I find that most men I meet with mothers-in-law also have wives.

 

[CrackPipeCowboy]

Weren't they originally castrated?

Priests could be married before their ordination and remain married. The latins were the ones who introduced required celibacy in the 11th century. Even within the Roman Catholic sphere, there are 24 total rites, and not every one require celibacy. The Eastern Catholics and Anglican converted clergymen are the one's who come to mind for allowing married men into the priesthood. There were even some bishops who were married until around the third and fourth century. However, a married bishop is extremely impractical, so the remained tradition in both the west and the east is for a monastic/celibate candidate.

 

[Male Idiot]

Abrahamics and little boys are like greeks and little boys. You need a crowbar to seprate them.
Whenever they have a wife (beard) or not doesn't matter, they and teachers are the same, just one has a fancy small hat, frock or sandpeople robe.

 

[RollerGator]

What's the old saying? Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers.

 

[Bioniclelover]

It started out with an order by the pope to his loyal subjects to kidnap the priests' wives and children and sell them as sex slaves to Muslims. It was evil from day one.

Where the fuck did you get that bullshit from

 

[The Ugly One]

It's not a religious purity thing

It actually was. We have copious primary sources on this. For example, Augustine wrote in City of God that the fundamental stain of original sin is the introduction of irrationality into sex, making the coital act fundamentally sinful. The basic idea is, drawing on his pre-christian metaphysical education, that loss of reason is the root of sin, and since you can't have sex dispassionately, it's always sinful. The sacrament of marriage then covers up the sinfulness of sex, reducing it from a mortal to a venial sin. From about the fifth century until John Paul II simply swept about 1500 years of tradition aside with Theology of the Body, Catholic teaching was clear on this matter: sex is evil, and if you want to get on the short route to heaven, don't do it.

Centralization of power was certainly part of Urban II achieving the holy will of God by condemning thousands of women and children to a life of perpetual rape at the hands of Arabs. He also fought lay investiture, But he was also heavily influenced by the Cluniac movement, a Benedictine reform movement which sought, among other things, to restore the centrality of celibacy to achieving the purity of body & soul needed to earn a place in heaven. But he wasn't the first. Actions to get rid of priests' families had gone on for hundreds of years, and spiritual purity was always fundamental to the reasoning.

Where the fuck did you get that bullshit from

Pope Urban II's decree at Synod of Melfi.

To be deep in history is to cease to be Catholic.

 

[Beelzebub's Lawyer]

It's not in the Bible.
Paul gives recommendations to do what is basically the MGTOW-style monk mode where you don't chase bitches or jerk off in order to focus on more important things.
However, when the Catholic Church made it mandatory for priests, that was a mistake because it goes against human biology.
I wouldn't be surprised if the pedo shit was at least partially attributable to the priests being forced to go celibate.

Even from a religious standpoint, it makes no sense.
God created us as sexual beings full of urges and suppressing them forever is going against god's plan.

Moderation good, celibacy bad.

 

[Ethan Ralph's Gunt]

Mandated clerical celibacy incentivized homosexuals to enter the priesthood throughout the ages because it disallowed men with normal sexual appetites

 

[powdered toast]

It actually was. We have copious primary sources on this. For example, Augustine wrote in City of God that the fundamental stain of original sin is the introduction of irrationality into sex, making the coital act fundamentally sinful. The basic idea is, drawing on his pre-christian metaphysical education, that loss of reason is the root of sin, and since you can't have sex dispassionately, it's always sinful. The sacrament of marriage then covers up the sinfulness of sex, reducing it from a mortal to a venial sin. From about the fifth century until John Paul II simply swept about 1500 years of tradition aside with Theology of the Body, Catholic teaching was clear on this matter: sex is evil, and if you want to get on the short route to heaven, don't do it.

Centralization of power was certainly part of Urban II achieving the holy will of God by condemning thousands of women and children to a life of perpetual rape at the hands of Arabs. He also fought lay investiture, But he was also heavily influenced by the Cluniac movement, a Benedictine reform movement which sought, among other things, to restore the centrality of celibacy to achieving the purity of body & soul needed to earn a place in heaven. But he wasn't the first. Actions to get rid of priests' families had gone on for hundreds of years, and spiritual purity was always fundamental to the reasoning.


Pope Urban II's decree at Synod of Melfi.

To be deep in history is to cease to be Catholic.

Augustine did not write that in City of God lmao. He was speaking of sex driven by concupiscence/disordered desire, not all sex. To be deep in history is to misquote the saints for an excuse to deny Catholicism?

To answer the OP, yes celibacy in priesthood is fine and considered more holy because it is more difficult and comes from a supernatural vocation as opposed to a natural vocation (desire for marriage/family). Some rites allow for married priests so it's not like it's an absolute requirement across the religion. It has just developed as the tradition of the latin rite.