Time Travel arguments

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@Mewtwo_Rain Your theories reminded me of a story I ran across on Reddit once. This one. To summarize, dude got attacked, but survived and went on to have a full and happy life, with a job and a wife and a kid, and this lasts for DECADES (or so he thinks).... but then he one day notices this one lamp just does not look right, and he becomes obsessed with it to the point it drives away his wife etc and he just becomes more obsessed with trying to figure this lamp out.... then he wakes up, and it turns out he has not lived decades but in fact is just waking up from being attacked. But apparently the dream was so convincing that as far as his mental state is concerned it counted as a lifetime.

Since I do lucid dreaming experiments and I in general have an interest in dreams, I have occasionally seen stuff like this crop up personally--though never to this extent. One actually involved time travel, and I remember being disappointed when I woke up and it was still plain old present day.

(Of course, this raises the question of what exactly "dreams" are. I've heard a lot of the common explanations but they just don't sit right with me).
 
skykiii powiedział(a):
@Mewtwo_Rain Your theories reminded me of a story I ran across on Reddit once. This one. To summarize, dude got attacked, but survived and went on to have a full and happy life, with a job and a wife and a kid, and this lasts for DECADES (or so he thinks).... but then he one day notices this one lamp just does not look right, and he becomes obsessed with it to the point it drives away his wife etc and he just becomes more obsessed with trying to figure this lamp out.... then he wakes up, and it turns out he has not lived decades but in fact is just waking up from being attacked. But apparently the dream was so convincing that as far as his mental state is concerned it counted as a lifetime.

Since I do lucid dreaming experiments and I in general have an interest in dreams, I have occasionally seen stuff like this crop up personally--though never to this extent. One actually involved time travel, and I remember being disappointed when I woke up and it was still plain old present day.

(Of course, this raises the question of what exactly "dreams" are. I've heard a lot of the common explanations but they just don't sit right with me).
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When I'm in a very relaxed position, mostly in that interval of falling sleep, I'm able to shut off noise, sense and smell.

It's really weird to do it voluntarily, and is really weird to be able to shut it down like its a switch.

The most intriguing part is that when I'm falling sleep I can have long detailed and time consuming dreams, events in dream take hours even days, yet only seconds passed in my own body.

The brain i believe has untold Energy, far more than we use everyday.
 
skykiii powiedział(a):
hen he wakes up, and it turns out he has not lived decades but in fact is just waking up from being attacked. But apparently the dream was so convincing that as far as his mental state is concerned it counted as a lifetime.

Since I do lucid dreaming experiments and I in general have an interest in dreams, I have occasionally seen stuff like this crop up personally--though never to this extent. One actually involved time travel, and I remember being disappointed when I woke up and it was still plain old present day.

(Of course, this raises the question of what exactly "dreams" are. I've heard a lot of the common explanations but they just don't sit right with me).
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Dreams I would argue are a connection to some kind of alternate plane of existence, maybe not an alt dimension but something or somewhere. I've had lucid dreams where I was effected by oddities in real life such as a strong wind that knocked me out of a chair in my house in a sealed room, I've had a person that began to appear in my dreams and tell me things that would come true in a freakish prophethic dream that is still coming true to this day and others saw (in real life) things that happened in it, and more. On another day when I'm less busy I'll try to detail it even if this isn't the most on-topic for said discussion.

I've even had dreams where I die, and continue as an omnipresent observer, and more. Though I haven't had visual dreams since 2015 when I had a bunch of supernatural experiences with the prophetic dream I began having and that whole experience.
Saint Agustin powiedział(a):
The most intriguing part is that when I'm falling sleep I can have long detailed and time consuming dreams, events in dream take hours even days, yet only seconds passed in my own body.

The brain i believe has untold Energy, far more than we use everyday.
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I've always believed it's because time is different in dreams than reality or maybe time perception exists differently once we sleep. I've had a night where I kept getting killed in a repeating nightmare that usually lasted hours , wake up and seconds had passed from when I previous woke and I kept having it repeat over and over again until I thought it would never end.

But I agree most certainly with your second part/observation: Who knows what our brain does when sleeping or what its full potential (asleep or awake) overall.
 
Save the Loli powiedział(a):
Time travel backwards can't happen because it violates causality.
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Thing is to me this itself sounds like something that makes more sense for fiction than for reality.

Humanity has an inherent limit in that we tend to think what makes sense for us must be the objective truth. Yes, in my dinky little brain thinking of all the ways I could be my own grandpa might send me screaming for the tylenol.... but Time is not a human being, and any God figure that could create Time is also way above our petty limitations. For all we know, "causality" might not even be a real thing for them, or may be something they worked out a long time ago.

Mewtwo_Rain powiedział(a):
I've even had dreams where I die, and continue as an omnipresent observer,
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You too huh? For me I blew up after going through a door, and it was sort of like when you play Unreal Tournament or some other multiplayer game and it shows you a view of when you died, and I recall in the dream saying "OH COME ON!"

Its... made it really hard to go back to movies and such that use a "die in the dream, die for real" premise.
 
skykiii powiedział(a):
You too huh? For me I blew up after going through a door, and it was sort of like when you play Unreal Tournament or some other multiplayer game and it shows you a view of when you died, and I recall in the dream saying "OH COME ON!"

Its... made it really hard to go back to movies and such that use a "die in the dream, die for real" premise.
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Since I got a few more minutes: In my case I had a dream that kept happening over and over again all night. I was at an elementary school I went to, I see a guy I knew he would say one particular phrase I walk towards the stairs past a hall and then someone would jump me and start stabbing me over and over again until I was basically dead then I would become a ghost watching the "post death" events of the people in the dream.

After a bit, I'd wake up only seconds or a small handful of minutes had passed from the last time I had that dream, and then I'd fall back asleep and the dream would start all over again from the beginning . After my death a a few details would change each time or certain events to the other characters, but each time I'd wake up again and again and again.

I don't know how many times it repeated that night but I remember it started to make me feel sick, and when I'd wake up I started to develop a headache so I'd go back to sleep and again and again it'd repeat. One time a few years after that night I actually did return to that school and the weirdest coincidence is I ran into my old friend in the same hallway near the stairs and he said the exact phrase from my dream and I got out of there as quickly as possible. Maybe nothing would have happened, and I was just being superstitious or a fool over a mere dream but I'd rather not chance it.

Another dream I remember quite vividly was I once had the "falling with a failing parachute" common dream, however, I didn't wake until right as I hit the ground, and when I woke I was standing on my bed profusely sweating as I fell down instantly.
 
skykiii powiedział(a):
Thing is to me this itself sounds like something that makes more sense for fiction than for reality.

Humanity has an inherent limit in that we tend to think what makes sense for us must be the objective truth. Yes, in my dinky little brain thinking of all the ways I could be my own grandpa might send me screaming for the tylenol.... but Time is not a human being, and any God figure that could create Time is also way above our petty limitations. For all we know, "causality" might not even be a real thing for them, or may be something they worked out a long time ago.
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God is God and humans are humans, unless you think we can become God. Causality is quite well established mathematically, and just because it sounds like some magical field doesn't mean that it actually is. There also seem to be laws of physics baked into our universe that prevent common means of time travel like wormholes, like here's Kip Thorne summarizing his own research that demonstrates wormholes will automatically explode if they become a time machine.
 
bumping this thread because I have a theory

Time travel would erase you from existence

When a guy busts a fat nut into a hot babe, millions of sperm are released travelling to the womb. Only one of these sperm makes it. Sperm only lives inside the sweaty ballsack for 74 days.

Given the case of Marty Mcfly. Even if your parents still met, they still might not have sex at the same time and the possibility of different sperm reaching the womb being a certainty would result in a completely different person.

Then think if you went back even further. If you interrupted the time one of your descendants conceived, it would fuck everything up in your bloodline. You would essentially replace everyone after that with someone else.
 
skykiii powiedział(a):
TWO - Why is Hawkings' and his followers default assumption that time travel would be used for tourism?
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The golden age sci fi era, which was when the idea really took off on the public imagination, had loads of great stories with it as a device, is probably the answer. Although time travel has been a device in literature for a long time.
A Sound Of Thunder has already been mentioned, but ‘by his bootstraps’ and ‘all you zombies’ (Heinlein) , Asimov’s ‘end of eternity’ ( pilfered by marvel quite a bit) . There’s also a really disturbing one called ‘let’s go to Golgotha!’ Whose plot you can probably guess.
 
A common argument I hear about time travel is that you cannot/should not alter ANYTHING from the past lest you create unforeseen consequences for the future. Okay, I assume if I step on a bug ten years ago, then that can cause World War III or something. Wouldn't your presence alone change reality since you're not supposed or expected to be there?
 
If backwards time travel is real, it has to result in a new reality. The stories where you have to be really careful not to change anything, or you inevitably end up causing the current timeline regardless, are dumb plot contrivances.
 
anon483637 powiedział(a):
This makes no sense. Mathematics can only justify itself, whenever you apply it to the real world you're relying on some underlying philosophical assumptions about reality, whether or not you realise it.
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It's as well-established as "you will be burned by putting your hand on a hot stove." That can be described mathematically too based on the temperature of the stove and the materials used, the rate the heat transfer from the stove to your hand, and the speed of the chemical reactions that occur in your hand.

I don't see how it's hard to believe that doing similar math based on the properties of time and space can't be used to prove time travel cannot exist.
 
Save the Loli powiedział(a):
It's as well-established as "you will be burned by putting your hand on a hot stove." That can be described mathematically too based on the temperature of the stove and the materials used, the rate the heat transfer from the stove to your hand, and the speed of the chemical reactions that occur in your hand.

I don't see how it's hard to believe that doing similar math based on the properties of time and space can't be used to prove time travel cannot exist.
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AKA it's not "proved mathematically" at all. "Proved mathematically" and "described mathematically" aren't the same thing. You know you'll burn your hand without maths at all, it's a different kind of knowledge, and you can never have a mathematical proof time travel is impossible since it's only as good at the model of space and time you're using.
 
Norbert the Tiger powiedział(a):
Snip
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Isn't this kind of like waveform collapse, where all potentials exist simultaneously until one is observed and then the rest collapse and the observed one becomes the "main" universe of whatever.
I don't understand who counts as the observer though if it's something millions of people are watching simultaneously, or is the time traveler the observer? Then would it always go how they expect it to? Or be random?
Save the Loli powiedział(a):
And no shit people would want to hang out during the French Revolution or any other famous historic event. Look how tourists act now and look how crowded any famous historical site is. You should be having giant brawls between commies and tankies who love Robespierre and all the Marie Antoinette fans/monarchists/whatever, each one of them traveled from the future.
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Maybe they're like protected areas, only future governments and corporations have time travel technology and it's very restricted, maybe they make fake timelines or holosuites for all the monarchyboos. Or maybe it beams your consciousness into the past but only people who are about to die so that nothing changes and weirdo tourists still get to experience the event.
 
skykiii powiedział(a):
they have a hard drive or whatever back in prehistoric times that has all recorded history on it, and whenever a time wave is detected, they compare current history against what that data thing in the past says (apparently its never affected because its in the past).

Thinking about it now, doesn't this create a chance that like, Atlanteans or something would find that thing and it would, itself, fundamentally change history?
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You could obviously encrypt the drive, and I doubt that would be crackable, but the problem is, what if all the changes to the past made you chose a different encryption key? Even if you got rid of the encryption idea, if the changes to the past are large at all, the communication protocol to the drive could be slightly different, and make it not work.
 
anon483637 powiedział(a):
AKA it's not "proved mathematically" at all. "Proved mathematically" and "described mathematically" aren't the same thing. You know you'll burn your hand without maths at all, it's a different kind of knowledge, and you can never have a mathematical proof time travel is impossible since it's only as good at the model of space and time you're using.
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No, it's the same sort of knowledge. I can use math to prove just how much my hand will burn without actually needing to test it myself. Just like I can use math to prove I cannot violate causality. You can make all the special pleadings to some silly model of cosmology you want, but I bet those models don't describe the universe very well (and no, you don't need some dubious concept like dark matter to prove causality can't be violated).
 
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