🦊 Furry Pengo Q&A - Ask Pengo/Hatun questions about Glip and Floraverse here

[Hatun]

Hello, it's Pengo.
I made this account to look at logs, clarify anything that may be relevant, answer questions people may have and want answered, and/or allow for victims of Marl/PK/Eevee to talk to me without fear of having to disclose their main/personal social media accounts.

PK knows that I have chosen to make an account (I told them so if someone brings up that I've posted here they don't worry), but does not have access to the account nor do they commandeer anything I say here. They had nothing to do with me considering making an account, and honestly PK seems to prefer never hearing about KF. I also spoke privately to certain KF users about the idea long before I told PK about it.
Basically: PK did not push me to do this and anything people say to me privately shall be kept private.
However, I also know that people involved with PK have previously come here, like Twee, with questionable intent so I understand if people doubt me and I do not blame them.

I don't have much to say right now, mainly just posting to let thread-goers know that I'm around if, for whatever reason, they want to talk, ask questions, or shitpost.

 

[LUNEKO]

I don't have much to say right now, mainly just posting to let thread-goers know that I'm around if, for whatever reason, they want to talk, ask questions, or shitpost.

Do you actually plan on opening up a case at court for Marl? if so what do you need or are lacking to achieve this? not that i want you to disclose any sensitive information, just wondering how's that going

 

[Ledian]

The only question I have is why re-associate with them. Re-reading the thread, I've seen people purposefully run headfirst into the metaphorical truck for little benefit.

 

[FrickleMyPickle]

Hello, it's Pengo.
I made this account to look at logs, clarify anything that may be relevant, answer questions people may have and want answered, and/or allow for victims of Marl/PK/Eevee to talk to me without fear of having to disclose their main/personal social media accounts.

PK knows that I have chosen to make an account (I told them so if someone brings up that I've posted here they don't worry), but does not have access to the account nor do they commandeer anything I say here. They had nothing to do with me considering making an account, and honestly PK seems to prefer never hearing about KF. I also spoke privately to certain KF users about the idea long before I told PK about it.
Basically: PK did not push me to do this and anything people say to me privately shall be kept private.
However, I also know that people involved with PK have previously come here, like Twee, with questionable intent so I understand if people doubt me and I do not blame them.

I don't have much to say right now, mainly just posting to let thread-goers know that I'm around if, for whatever reason, they want to talk, ask questions, or shitpost.

You know that Glip's going to throw you under the bus at the slightest sniff of you no longer being useful, right?

 

[Hatun]

Do you actually plan on opening up a case at court for Marl? if so what do you need or are lacking to achieve this? not that i want you to disclose any sensitive information, just wondering how's that going

I do. I have talked to PK about this for longer than I could probably say. As far as I can tell, they are genuine in wishing Marl was in jail and have provided me with a lot of sensitive info that I don't think they would have if they did not want him in jail.

I don't want to share too much on progress or lack thereof because I know Marl has been keeping an eye on me, and I rather he not know anything tangible.

The only question I have is why re-associate with them. Re-reading the thread, I've seen people purposefully run headfirst into the metaphorical truck for little benefit.

There are a few reasons. I believe Marl needs to go to jail, that his victims (and by extension, those that PK hurt) deserve much more than was given to them, and that a situation like this should not be allowed again. The first requires PK for information, the second one requires them to improve as a person, and the third requires them to be fully aware of dangerous behavior.
I don't really gain anything from knowing PK apart from having closure from our own spats, am not in their current flora server, nor am I really friends with their friends, etc. I just genuinely believe that the world is better when people become better. If they genuinely want to change, then I want to help that if I am in a position to do so. Naive, I know, but if I'm wasting my time and they're secretly plotting or whatever then I'm out and at least I tried.

You know that Glip's going to throw you under the bus at the slightest sniff of you no longer being useful, right?

Honestly? At this point it would be easier to be cast out of their life than to be involved in trying to jail a slippery rat like Marl. If I get to meet the bus again, at least it's over for real lol

 

[Meowthkip]

Honestly? At this point it would be easier to be cast out of their life than to be involved in trying to jail a slippery rat like Marl. If I get to meet the bus again, at least it's over for real lol

So far you're like the only driving force to accomplish the goal of Marl getting booked. I definitely believe you when you say that Glip and Eevee appear genuine when they say they want him in jail, but I'm still highly suspicious of them because it's taken this long for them to even take the tiniest baby steps towards accomplishing that goal. Even if Marl's dad is a cop, he's not a fed, and the feds are the ones who should be looking into this, and I suspect that an investigation would wind up with them being implicated.

 

[Abra]

I just genuinely believe that the world is better when people become better. If they genuinely want to change, then I want to help that if I am in a position to do so. Naive, I know, but if I'm wasting my time and they're secretly plotting or whatever then I'm out and at least I tried.

That is a kind attitude to have, and perhaps this sounds condescending, but I hope you are making appropriate strides to keep your investment in this minimal. It's been discussed in this thread, and while a lot of us here have differing opinions on how long a person should be given the opportunity to improve themselves, PK's progress is... slowgoing, to put it lightly and in a simple way. I know I'm just a rando here, but I do worry about your continued willingness to help someone while gaining little in return. Look out for yourself. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[LUNEKO]

Honestly? At this point it would be easier to be cast out of their life than to be involved in trying to jail a slippery rat like Marl. If I get to meet the bus again, at least it's over for real lol

I understand the need to contact them for information to build up the case but why the 200+ public page mental diarrhea you collaborated with her? wouldn't the information better remain within the parties persecuting him? and if it was about contacting victims you could had done that by yourself privately, i don't mean to discredit your anger or trauma but it seems all that shitshow did was just give Marl a head start to run away further and cover more tracks

 

[Legosi]

You say Marl's been keeping an eye on you. How did Marl even know you were going to post about him? It seems odd for him to be looking into your account without someone at least giving him a heads-up that you were going to be talking about him to begin with.

 

[Hatun]

Even if Marl's dad is a cop, he's not a fed, and the feds are the ones who should be looking into this, and I suspect that an investigation would wind up with them being implicated.

I once tried to talk to the police about Marl in 2014, but gave up because the cops seemed completely uninterested and just brushed me off repeatedly. I hadn't known that I should have contacted the feds instead. I know PK had a similar experience at some point, though don't know exact details, but it is very discouraging. I can imagine feeling helpless and not even considering it an option for a very long time.
Especially considering that Eevee didn't even know that many laws on child abuse state that the time towards statute of limitations begins upon discovery (as in, acknowledging that children who are abused may not realize they were abused until many many years later, or "discover" they were abused) as opposed to on the act itself, I think... they all just genuinely did not think about these things in-depth before. I agree there is a chance that an investigation may implicate them, but I think if the feds ever wanted to talk to PK, they'd jump at the chance. Even if they decide not to, the majority of their experiences are now written up.

I hope you are making appropriate strides to keep your investment in this minimal. [...] PK's progress is... slowgoing, to put it lightly and in a simple way. I know I'm just a rando here, but I do worry about your continued willingness to help someone while gaining little in return. Look out for yourself. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

I understand that, and thank you for your concern. I do look out for myself, and if I have problems with how PK acts, I always bring it up to them, and they have, so far, listened. I also talk to my psych, and other friends (who do not know PK, and some of which who knew me when I was originally kicked out of PK's friendgroup, so would recognize signs if things went bad), and on top of that, PK and I do not talk every day, so it is not like I am inundated and basing my self-worth on them, like I sort of had in 2013.
PK spends a lot of time working on flora, and I am not in the flora chat, nor am I hugely involved in flora as a process.

I understand the need to contact them for information to build up the case but why the 200+ public page mental diarrhea you collaborated with her? wouldn't the information better remain within the parties persecuting him? and if it was about contacting victims you could had done that by yourself privately, i don't mean to discredit your anger or trauma but it seems all that shitshow did was just give Marl a head start to run away further and cover more tracks

I can understand that, and no worries I don't think you're discrediting anything. I wrote my own document with logs to corroborate Big Fluff's leaked logs, as there had been previous concern and discussion of the logs being doctored. I had been silenced for years, so I compiled what I did and shared it as a way for my current self to validate my past self and BF.

I helped with editing the apology doc PK wrote. I wanted them to actually show they were remorseful. They had felt that anything they shared or said was pointless. I told them that regardless if people believed them, they needed to take steps towards showing they want to improve. Actions speak louder than words, and putting forth a public document with apologies would be a good first step that can be built upon. I did ask others to look over it and got more suggestions and edits, but it was hard to keep succinct. I recognize now with seeing what Lain and BF have written, that there was much to improve upon in those apologies, but I still think it is better for PK to have apologized at all than to not have. That's not me saying that the apology has to be accepted, but rather that it's original goal (being a first step that genuinely attempts to show remorse and sincerity) was a worthwhile attempt if it could help anyone even a little.

For the Marl document they wrote, I did not really edit anything except tiny suggestions. I felt it was important for them to share their history with Marl as it helps to reinforce that he has hurt many, is a long and in-depth document for if Marl's new identities are ever found, and it would help if PK open discussion about Marl after silencing it for so many years. I will say though, that I did not suggest PK make a discord channel about discussing Marl, and that was not added to the documents until the very very end. I have nothing to do with their server.

The document alone does not constitute enough to jail him, and he was completely fine with trying to live with PK even after the BF logs dropped (in that he attempted to push PK into letting him stay with them in CO), so I did not feel that it was jeopardizing anything.
He also frequently deletes his stuff regularly, even when I knew him in 2013, so I feel that regardless of what occurs, unless the feds snag him at EXACTLY the right time, his machines are clean, and there is little to no dirt on him solely on what he owns. He is an idiot, but a cowardly one, and he has always covered his tracks. If he is going to find new dogfuckers to hang out with (I'm sure it's only a matter of time), then that will be a more tangible thing for the feds to attempt to catch him doing.


These documents have actually led to people coming forward privately and publicly with their own experiences, but I acknowledge it did not help everyone, and I am sorry about that and have apologized directly to some who were unhappy with it. I'm not sure what should have been done instead as, if PK only wrote a direct and succinct apology, then they would not really have something to show they genuinely no longer care about or wish to protect Marl. That doesn't mean there was no way to do things better though, and I am always looking for things to help those hurt.

Additionally, I have tried to contact victims privately, but some do not respond and it's also intrusive for me to do. If someone wants to speak about it, I want to let them do so on their own terms.

I guess I thought of the documents more as something that could potentially do more good than harm, as opposed to something that will suddenly make Marl disappear.

 

[FrickleMyPickle]

I helped with editing the apology doc PK wrote. I wanted them to actually show they were remorseful. They had felt that anything they shared or said was pointless. I told them that regardless if people believed them, they needed to take steps towards showing they want to improve. Actions speak louder than words, and putting forth a public document with apologies would be a good first step that can be built upon. I did ask others to look over it and got more suggestions and edits, but it was hard to keep succinct. I recognize now with seeing what Lain and BF have written, that there was much to improve upon in those apologies, but I still think it is better for PK to have apologized at all than to not have. That's not me saying that the apology has to be accepted, but rather that it's original goal (being a first step that genuinely attempts to show remorse and sincerity) was a worthwhile attempt if it could help anyone even a little.

I think that's part of the problem; PK seems to be under the impression that putting out an apology is this massive step forward that needs to be accepted and celebrated, regardless of whether it's backed up with actions. They're still luring emotionally vulnerable people into their discord, still emotionally gangbanging them and sometimes having them pay for the privilege, still shifting the blame onto others, and in fact, immediately followed up said "apology" with that pity party comic about how you're a saint and they're a tiny vulnerable innocent child and everyone who keeps in mind their extensive track record of lying and responds with skepticism is a monster.

It's coming across as "See? SEE? PENGO says I'm a good person and forgives me for everything I've done or will ever do, and so should you!"

 

[LUNEKO]

I guess I thought of the documents more as something that could potentially do more good than harm, as opposed to something that will suddenly make Marl disappear.

My main gripes with the documents where not its call to action for the victims to come forward but rather the absurdly repetitiveness of it and how it read more like a far too long highschool callout post than a call for help or apology, then again most of these issues is with Glip part of it since it felt like she was trying really hard to absolve herself of any guilt every other sentence, but as you said this had little to do with you, not to mention that its starting to look like you bent her arm to do an actual apology, rather than Glip herself realizing an apology was due.
On another topic you say you're being very careful to not to get tangled into more bullshit with Glip, which is the wise thing to do, but i can't help but to feel Glip got other plans for you as got2hands stated:

immediately followed up said "apology" with that pity party comic about how you're a saint and they're a tiny vulnerable innocent child and everyone who keeps in mind their extensive track record of lying and responds with skepticism is a monster.

It's coming across as "See? SEE? PENGO says I'm a good person and forgives me for everything I've done or will ever do, and so should you!"

How do you feel about your portrayal in that comic and everything else surrounding the Floraverse cult? since all these actions are a separate issue from Marl

 

[bonanus]

How do you feel about the more recent occurrences concerning Glip's previous Discord server and how she handled it?

As it's common and should be a standard, Discord server administrators and moderation teams should take responsibility for their actions and wrongdoings by apologizing to whom they've hurt. It's highly expected and professional, however as Glip allowed a minor or two to slide by into the forbiddenflora channels, it's highly suspicious and evidence that her actions speak louder than words. She could've written an apology to address these issues, but no, she doesn't take responsibility.

She blamed the minor who came out about these with evidence, mind you, and then blamed Marl. Never mind that opaopa was present ten minutes afterwards, no, he couldn't have done anything wrong. Is it possible to tell Glip to suck it up and give out a genuine apology for those aside from Lain and Bigfluff?

Apologies, but the fact Glip refuses to act like a mature adult about more recent claims is irritating due to her countless enablers and cult.

 

[Hatun]

You say Marl's been keeping an eye on you. How did Marl even know you were going to post about him? It seems odd for him to be looking into your account without someone at least giving him a heads-up that you were going to be talking about him to begin with.

I had written on twitter that I had been planning to write something on Marl. I know Marl is still online in some spaces, and considering how far PK-related news travels in certain circles, it's possible he saw it. I know he has known many many people, as he paints with an extremely wide brush and is basically willing to fuck anyone. I recall one time talking to a friend I've known for 12 years (long before I knew PK, they basically shared no spaces with PK at all), and they found out that one of their close IRL friends knew Marl (as an acquaintance) and had to warn her about him.
Yes, it's possible that the call is coming from within the house (so to speak), but I also have seen that Marl just... knows a lot of people. He's also kind of paranoid (ironic coming from me I guess) and obsessed with weird shows of control, and I wouldn't doubt if he wanted to check on me every so often.
Example of weird show of control: When Marl was packing his shit up to leave, he specifically left behind a small ceramic (?) fish he had painted as a kid. He left it behind hidden in PK's house (in the bathroom I think? I could be wrong) and it wasn't found for a long time. There is literally no reason to do that except for him to know that he has left his mark and that it will be there for a long time. PK wasn't sure what to do with it because it wasn't just a random item of Marl's, it was something unique he made as a child. If PK were to throw it away it would be like throwing away something that an innocent child had made, instead of something that Marl, dogfucker extraordinaire, made. It was just an extremely calculated move on Marl's part to make.

Additionally, Marl's current partner had been in contact with PK. They contacted PK via e-mail to (extremely tact-lessly) ask for something Marl had left at their house. PK spoke to them, and they eventually started to direct message. We found out a lot about them and they mentioned Marl is friends with their IRL friends and online friends as well now, which implies he has a new online identity. They also said that Marl had attempted to have sex with someone and he had "repeatedly asked if they were okay" (as proof that he cares about consent now or something), but that person backed out as they found out they were sex-averse... Which, to me, sounds just like previous experiences people have had with Marl where they back out at the very last second because he builds up sex as this amazing and intimate thing without caring about the other person's thoughts.

PK told this partner that they were writing up a list of things Marl had done to them for closure, and this person agreed that sounded very helpful and encouraged PK to do it.

(As a bonus, when PK tried to talk to them about Marl, this person sometimes deflected to talk about how evil KF was even when PK wasn't talking about that, and at one point rambled about how a 16 year old isn't a child. Methinks Marl has his claws very deep in this person's head already.)

When all was posted, PK eventually messaged them to ask some questions, and they replied harshly saying that PK lied to them, was worse than Marl, and that I lied and assumed things about them. This was after they had already implied they thought many people were liars (no doubt Marl's suggestions), and again, after they had encouraged PK to write their doc. I think Marl found out or they were stressed and told Marl and then took it out on PK. I wrote a little apology for misconstruing their words and copy-pasted exactly what portions of their words I had used in writing my small letter towards them to show why I wrote what I did, but they never replied. This person never told us their username so we can't really track Marl through that connection.

Marl seemed to be very scared of me and, despite the fact that I did not talk about him for maybe 6 or so years, apparently would throw a fit if anyone mentioned my name at him, or only mention me if he wanted to try to get PK mad about me (like "hey let's write a story making fun of Pengo so he gets mad lol") which makes me think he wanted to make sure I was afraid of speaking up.

I only know Marl is keeping up with things because after my few twitter posts he deleted his telegram (PK had it to keep logs), and then soon after our documents were posted, his discord was deleted. I can only prove that his discord was around until may 2020 (which was after his telegram was deleted I believe) as that was the date I had included a screenshot of something he said in an old flora discord (I have access to an old server as I was looking for logs involving Marl, and I checked all my older versions of my doc to see the exact date I added that screenshot), but I'm almost certain he deleted it after my post went live.

I don't really think he expected me to notice.

They're still luring emotionally vulnerable people into their discord, still emotionally gangbanging them and sometimes having them pay for the privilege, still shifting the blame onto others, and in fact, immediately followed up said "apology" with that pity party comic about how you're a saint and they're a tiny vulnerable innocent child and everyone who keeps in mind their extensive track record of lying and responds with skepticism is a monster.

It's coming across as "See? SEE? PENGO says I'm a good person and forgives me for everything I've done or will ever do, and so should you!"

I've spoken to them a lot, especially recently with the logs of Hare's scene being posted, about how I don't feel scenes are really that beneficial overall, and they've told me they haven't been doing them very much at all lately. That does not excuse the past ones, but I do hope they lessen. I understand their original intent was to prevent another "Marl" from happening, in that Marl thrived in a community that allowed him to abuse people individually behind the scenes, so a community that involves people having the ability to bring that all to light would deter people like this in theory.. which is noble, but I don't think it's going as well as they wanted it to.
"Paying for the privilege" I imagine is regarding the NSFW commissions about domming others or whatever it was, which I understand the discomfort because I would not pay for something like that, but I also can't really argue since... If someone wants to pay for something, it is their money. I do know though, that PK did refuse to do some if they felt the person couldn't handle it/ understand the emotional weight the commission may hold.

As for luring emotionally vulnerable people, I really get that. I don't really know what to do there, because even if PK and their friends were completely totally fine, the vulnerable people have still been exposed to people like scarf, goopy, and Marl, so it's really something that needs to be addressed. PK has told me that they are getting more used to simply banning people, but I get the discomfort.

I didn't realize they were posting that comic, huh. They drew that months ago, and I think they had drawn it originally because they wanted to try to share their feelings in art because they couldn't word it. I do think that is poor timing, and I'm not sure I understand the point in posting it. I know Eevee tends to use Twitter impulsively and kind of like a crutch, so I imagine PK does the same with posting things. Considering Marl made their feelings and life forcibly private for years, I would imagine it's a product of mainly using art to connect with the outside world for so long. I try not to dissuade them in regards to art because I recognize it's their way of trying to process and communicate, especially about things that they've been through, but I can understand why, in the context of everything else, it could come off odd.

Is there something you suggest to make the apologies seem more genuine? You don't have to have a full in-depth plan or anything, I just don't want to make it seem like my approval means they're A-OK, because we have often discussed apologies not needing to be accepted, and they have agreed with that. With victims I have spoken to, I have also repeated that I do not expect anyone to forgive PK just because I have for what they did to me.

then again most of these issues is with Glip part of it since it felt like she was trying really hard to absolve herself of any guilt every other sentence, but as you said this had little to do with you, not to mention that its starting to look like you bent her arm to do an actual apology, rather than Glip herself realizing an apology was due.

PK did want to apologize, just felt defeated about it, if that makes sense. It's less that they did not want to and more that they felt nothing they said could help anyone and only hurt others.
As for absolving guilt, I've had to speak with PK in-depth about the concept a lot of people have regarding responsibility and apologies. Essentially, PK believes that in an apology, it helps to explain so as to understand why something went wrong and to show that you've put thought into it and will try to not do it again. This most likely stems from Marl's apologies being direct and succinct, with clearly no thought in it at all. He would say he was sorry, that things will be better and that was that... if he even decided to give an apology. I've seen logs where Marl literally would repeat that something was in the past and that PK just had to trust him because he was different now, without any action to back that up or even a sorry.
I've had to tell PK that sometimes explanation can seem like an excuse, even if the intent was not meant in that way. I still talk to them about this at times, and I think they will have difficulty with this concept for a while to come. I have sympathy for that for personal reasons, and I understand the difficulty in finding the balance between a succinct apology and one that feels like you've shown you have thought about your actions.

On another topic you say you're being very careful to not to get tangled into more bullshit with Glip, which is the wise thing to do, but i can't help but to feel Glip got other plans for you as got2hands stated:

Even if they had other plans for me, I'm not really sure what those plans could be. I'm not really some kind of popular person, I can't just suddenly and single-handedly change public opinion and I have no desire to. I do not like to be some kind of orator for their virtues, I'm not like others who would rally on twitter and reply to people about stuff they didn't even know about. PK has often talked to me about concerns about this, where they do not want me to feel like they are relying too much on me, nor do they want me to speak for them. The feeling is mutual. I don't control PK 100%, I only give suggestions and discuss with them what I think is important and why, and they choose to use that information how they see fit.
Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. I think this is more beneficial because it let's them make their own choices and learn. If I were just to be like HEY YOU'RE BEING A MORON AND JUST DO THIS, I feel like it wouldn't really result in any positive growth.
If things became that way, I would probably drift away.

How do you feel about your portrayal in that comic and everything else surrounding the Floraverse cult? since all these actions are a separate issue from Marl

My portrayal in the first comic PK included me in (angelbox comic thing) was ... well, I was upset when I first read it. It had some very specific things be wrong (such as the implication that I did not want them to publicly mention we had been e-mailing because I didn't want attention from KF... My reasons did not mention KF at all), but I was also sad because there were also very genuine points in it of how I had hurt them. I discussed it with my psych and took time to calm down. My psych and I decided that the best way forward would be to e-mail PK to discuss the inconsistencies, clarify things, and to possibly prevent escalation of more misinformation.
As for the current comic, I didn't know they were posting it but I suppose it isn't wrong: I do kind of sit quietly and listen a lot to when PK has concerns or worries.
I don't think I'm a saint or special or anything though, which I have told PK often. Honestly, by almost all kinds of metrics I'm a pretty big loser lol
I think I'm "mystified" in the comic a bit, because I probably mystify PK a bit. They ask a lot why I wanted to talk with them despite the years they had been cruel about me, and I didn't really have a clear reason for them.

How do you feel about the more recent occurrences concerning Glip's previous Discord server and how she handled it?
[...]
She blamed the minor who came out about these with evidence, mind you, and then blamed Marl. Never mind that opaopa was present ten minutes afterwards, no, he couldn't have done anything wrong. Is it possible to tell Glip to suck it up and give out a genuine apology for those aside from Lain and Bigfluff?

Apologies, but the fact Glip refuses to act like a mature adult about more recent claims is irritating due to her countless enablers and cult.

I could talk to them about that sometime; I have access to that discord server and looked through it. I did see proof of Marl adding people wordlessly to the NSFW servers, and even when someone was removed for suspicion of being a minor, Marl added them back in. PK did not speak much in what I saw, so I could believe that they just kind of drew, checked discord now and again, then drew again. There were times in the mod chat (if I remember correctly) that PK would state they were not going to be around very much and to handle things without them.
Marl would often speak over people, and speak with authority, so he was definitely a huge problem in there.

My opinion, which I have told PK, is that I don't think having a server is healthy for them as they've been a moderator for different servers and forums and etc since they were like... 14? I feel like they need to be able to take more of a step back, though I acknowledged it wasn't easy or very possible. They feel it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, where if they moderate their server they're a cult leader, and if they don't run a server, they're letting kids be in danger by not putting a watchful eye on their community.
I also know they attempt to take breaks from their server sometimes, but usually in the middle of these some new drama pops up so they are needed again.

I do think mods need to be able to do their job efficiently and without bias, and reading the scene with Hare was harrowing and I told PK as much. Opa and others mindlessly defending Marl as you've mentioned was also extremely bad.
I've also spoken to PK about my feelings about flora "cult" stuff, as I saw someone involved with flora make a joke about it (as in, making fun of people calling flora a cult) and it upset me to see that. PK was understanding, and does seem to want to make their server somewhere genuinely safe, and asks others to make sure they never overstep, but the problem there lies in ... their friends making sure they don't overstep, which was clearly a failure in the scene with Hare.
PK has claimed they have been scolded by their friends for handling things badly in the past, but I still think there is room for vast improvement.

Summary: I don't think the previous server was handled well at all, but I do think that Marl was actually a big part of that. I think PK is sincerely trying, but I am also not in the server because I'm a fuckin hermit so I can't say much, except I understand a lot of the concerns and I have voiced my own plenty of times.

Editing to add: Oops, I forgot to mention the "getting mad at the minor" part. PK can be very impulsive and tweet their first thoughts out sometimes. It's not justified at all.

 

[Legosi]

Funny that you mention Marl's current partner blaming KF and saying 16 isn't a child. Glip and Eevee did the exact same thing (I distinctly remember Eevee tweeting about how 16 is "barely a child" and implying that saying a child was abused was being slightly dishonest). Very ironic.

I worry about you, Pengo. From the way you speak of this entire situation I can tell that you're a very empathetic and patient person. Glip, however, can be manipulative and aggressive/defensive (even unintentionally). Not to sound harsh, but the way you approach some of this comes off as a bit naive though it is completely understandable. I do hope you stay mindful during this because red flags aren't always so clear.

I think most people would agree that Glip not being in charge of a server or people would be for the best. That server can serve as an echo chamber in a lot of ways. Glip is the content creator, the server is mostly young fans who idolize them in a way and this causes a power imbalance. It'll be hard for Glip to hold themselves accountable for anything when they have a small crowd of people assuring them that they were in the right because they're afraid to disagree with their idol. This along with the reluctance to ban dangerous people really does more harm than good for everyone involved. No one would be angry at them for deleting the server and moving on (except maybe fans).

 

[ginny]

oh boy.

pengo, @Hatun, if you havent seen glips behavior within their server, i advise you to do so. i would give it to your therapist/psy, too, to judge. its a really, really ugly and raw side to glip. theyre one of the most extreme narcissists i have ever seen, and i say this from a purely textbook standpoint that narcissists this extreme rarely ever (usually never) genuinely want to change or have the capacity to. its not IMPOSSIBLE, but the likelihood of you getting re-abused and all of this being/becoming narcissistic hoovering is very, very high. i feel like its even harder for glip to realize that theyre doing a lot of toxic things because a lot of this is defensive and learned behavior (reacting by blaming others, lashing out, etc etc) and therefore not really "conscious" for them. they might genuinely think theyre doing something good while acting in a completely self-serving, unempathetic, and sometimes outright abusive way.

I've spoken to them a lot, especially recently with the logs of Hare's scene being posted, about how I don't feel scenes are really that beneficial overall, and they've told me they haven't been doing them very much at all lately.

things like "scenes" are INTEGRAL to flora, theyre literally fuel for flora at this point. im pretty sure the last TEN visual novels were based on scenes that happened within the server. this behavior doesnt stop after a month, especially for someone like glip who lies before actually changing behavior (intentionally or not). "they've told me that haven't been doing them very much at all lately" sounds more like "well i havent been doing them recently" than "maybe i was wrong and i need to take responsibility and stop them altogether". im totally open to this being just due to shorthand on your part (due to all the info youre answering with), and i honestly hope so. im just already seeing warning signs of them not actually feeling like THEYRE the one who has done harm ever because they were a victim in some other way.

tl;dr: this is an incredibly dangerous situation for you with a slim to none chance of benefit, but as long as you have a professional then go for it, i guess?? just dont feel like you can save them when shit gets rough, dont be afraid to disengage lmfao

I think most people would agree that Glip not being in charge of a server or people would be for the best. That server can serve as an echo chamber in a lot of ways. Glip is the content creator, the server is mostly young fans who idolize them in a way and this causes a power imbalance. It'll be hard for Glip to hold themselves accountable for anything when they have a small crowd of people assuring them that they were in the right because they're afraid to disagree with their idol. This along with the reluctance to ban dangerous people really does more harm than good for everyone involved. No one would be angry at them for deleting the server and moving on (except maybe fans).

not to mention that glip, intentionally or not, facilitates that echo chamber environment and punishes behavior that goes against one (and rewards echoing/parallel statements with roaring agreement and praise). they have so much to do with the toxic environment and unseen "rules" of the server but they consistently and apparently still deny that or deflect from it. their behavior, especially when virtually unpoliced within their server, is proof enough that their apologies and willingness to change are still currently skin-deep.

so yeah, not only would deleting the server be best, but i personally think it would be an actual step towards being genuine with their apologies.

(i dont think this is going to happen any time soon, though, mostly because of the heavy dependence flora has on its audience/the server. i feel like a big reason for glip to not delete the server is because it would destroy a lot of "plotlines" and collaboration. but hey, feel free to prove me wrong!)

 

[Hatun]

Funny that you mention Marl's current partner blaming KF and saying 16 isn't a child. Glip and Eevee did the exact same thing (I distinctly remember Eevee tweeting about how 16 is "barely a child" and implying that saying a child was abused was being slightly dishonest). Very ironic.

Yes, I spoke at length about this to PK too, and they even acknowledged how Marl's current partner is basically like how they used to be. I've talked to PK about Eevee as well, and how aggressive and impulsive Eevee tends to be with tweets. They agreed and have been talking to Eevee about that.
I've expressed a lot of... frustrations about Eevee's past actions to put it lightly. Essentially that her willingness to go full aggro on people caused more harm than good both to victims and to PK, because it caused people to be less willing to speak if they're being called obvious badfaith sockpuppets.

It doesn't excuse everything, but I genuinely think that Marl seeks out people who will parrot what he believes. The main difference I feel is that PK claims to not have known the extent of what Marl did.
His current partner however, completely knows Marl was a horrible human being, but blindly believes that he has "changed." They literally state that the man PK knew no longer exists. It's terrifying. If I am naive (and I do not deny that I am) to believe in PK being able to change, Marl's partner is some other level entirely.

I worry about you, Pengo. From the way you speak of this entire situation I can tell that you're a very empathetic and patient person. Glip, however, can be manipulative and aggressive/defensive (even unintentionally). Not to sound harsh, but the way you approach some of this comes off as a bit naive though it is completely understandable. I do hope you stay mindful during this because red flags aren't always so clear.

I understand and thank you for the concern, you're not harsh at all. It is admittedly somewhat strange to see people worry for me, haha. I have seen and experienced the cruel side of PK for years. I am not ignorant to its existence, nor do I want to claim that PK is now suddenly incapable of harm (I would be at a similar position as Marl's current partner if I were to act that way).
Rather, I believe PK does want to be good and help people heal, and in their own way is attempting to show that. They have endured years of abuse and I personally know the difficult struggle in trying to unlearn bad behavior. I have friends who have hurt me deeply and who I have hurt deeply when we were younger, that we have both worked things out and chilled out. I believe in change so long as people are willing. I do think it is an uphill battle due to a wide variety of factors, but if I can help at all, I want to.
They also have dealt with an immense scrutiny over their words that make it difficult for them, as every single word needs to be thought about... I'm not saying it's entirely undeserved considering the years they've spent silencing victims, but rather that they are acutely aware of this, and that can cause trouble. Couple that with impulsivity and maladaptive mannerisms from years of abuse, and it's a lot.

I suppose part of the idea is also that.. I did nothing to stop Marl when I theoretically could have. People focus on PK not getting Marl in jail immediately, but I also did not. I did try a year after I knew him yes, but did I really try? I let people get hurt for years after he knew me because I was afraid, and if it's not acceptable for PK to have let that fear stop them, I don't think it's okay for me either.
I try to treat everyone the way I would want to be treated and judge everyone the way I would be judged. When I first made my post in 2014, I... honestly never wanted to. I wanted someone else to be "first" in talking about some of the dysfunctional actions I had noticed, and I didn't even touch upon Marl because I didn't even know what to think. But I took the first steps because I felt something was wrong and that there were probably people that were hurt who also wanted someone to be the first person to speak up. So I did that. It was stupidly written and I had a lot of misconceptions, and I honestly should have just focused on Marl, but I did try.
It didn't really amount to anything, and I stayed quiet for years.
There have been a lot of people who have come forward privately after PKs docs, and it's really... disheartening to see. Marl has done a lot of harm. I've counted at least 15 people and that includes the most high profile cases like me, PK, BF, Lain, Luvly, Exty, and Rootie.

I suppose this is an attempt again at being what I wish I would see: someone who can help people who were hurt, both PK and the victims, and who will try to get Marl in jail. If it does not work, no one can say I did not try.
I can accept if things between PK and I end poorly. It happened before, and it was extremely painful for a variety of reasons that are no longer in play, so if it happened again I don't really think it could be nearly as painful.
I can't, however, really accept Marl facing no repercussions nor can I accept people being in pain.

I think most people would agree that Glip not being in charge of a server or people would be for the best. That server can serve as an echo chamber in a lot of ways.

I've felt for a long time that the Flora Discord just needs to be burned to the ground, lol. If Glip wants to stay connected to close friends, they can still do that without forming a fan community with themself at the center. It's not good for Glip either to constantly be managing other people's mental health problems and trying (poorly) to put out interpersonal fires.

I agree. Truthfully, if it were up to me I'd prefer everyone go back to personal fan websites and tiny ass forums... Little decentralized pockets of friendgroups and fun.
But again, I'm a hermit.

I personally believe PK needs to focus on themself and not dedicate their time on trying to help others so much, especially when.. these people can turn out to be emotional/attention leeches like Goopy. They have been trying to focus on art lately, though again, I am not in the current flora chat, so I can't really speak too much on it from experience.
I cannot really force them into deleting the server, nor should I. I do genuinely believe a server does not do them as much good, in addition to people getting hurt in the server, but I also believe that if I push too hard for anything they are not receptive toward, they will become less receptive.
It's like one of those finger puppets, where the more you try to pull away the tighter it is, but when you meet in the middle, you can take the puppet off.
They have spoken to me of good things they have done and felt within their server (which of course I don't expect anyone to believe as I know they have hurt many in here directly or indirectly) so I understand why they feel an attachment towards it. Sometimes ripping something away can make things worse, especially without a plan, and as PK has a difficult time with vulnerability and connecting with people, they currently feel it is important to feel connected to their audience and friends. I respect that, while at the same time hoping they can have time for themself and reconsider certain aspects.

If you told me last year that BF, Lain, AND Pengo would make a season finale return I wouldnt have believed you, but fuck it 2020 continues to give me whiplash and at this point i wouldnt be surprised if Val or Marl show up posting here before the end of the year.

Buckle up for the spinoff.

oh boy.

pengo, @Hatun, if you havent seen glips behavior within their server, i advise you to do so. i would give it to your therapist/psy, too, to judge. its a really, really ugly and raw side to glip. theyre one of the most extreme narcissists i have ever seen, and i say this from a purely textbook standpoint that narcissists this extreme rarely ever (usually never) genuinely want to change or have the capacity to. its not IMPOSSIBLE, but the likelihood of you getting re-abused and all of this being/becoming narcissistic hoovering is very, very high. i feel like its even harder for glip to realize that theyre doing a lot of toxic things because a lot of this is defensive and learned behavior (reacting by blaming others, lashing out, etc etc) and therefore not really "conscious" for them. they might genuinely think theyre doing something good while acting in a completely self-serving, unempathetic, and sometimes outright abusive way.

Part of the reason for my account here is to specifically see things from the POV of people hurt by PK. I recognize PK will always talk to me about their experiences from their POV, which will most likely justify them. This is something people do, even non-narcs, and in this situation it's important for me to be able to see the rest of the story. If I find that there is genuinely no hope, that PK cannot understand why what they said hurt others nor feel any remorse for it, then I am gone.

things like "scenes" are INTEGRAL to flora, theyre literally fuel for flora at this point. im pretty sure the last TEN visual novels were based on scenes that happened within the server. this behavior doesnt stop after a month, especially for someone like glip who lies before actually changing behavior (intentionally or not). [...] im totally open to this being just due to shorthand on your part (due to all the info youre answering with), and i honestly hope so.

From what I have seen of people the main VNs were based on (scarf, Marl, Twee) I understand PK wanting to write about them, though I think PK doesn't fully differentiate between venting in artwork vs just completely retelling an event practically beat by beat in artwork.

I have spoken to them directly about how I think scenes are not beneficial, especially when the Hare scene came up. To quote them specifically, they said that they only had 3 scenes this year, one of which was apparently asking people to be harmful and aggressive towards them to prepare emotionally for when they wrote about Marl, expecting people to disbelieve them. They said there were 3 public scenes that were started by other people or something though.
To quote another topic about a month ago, they said the last time they made a VN concerning someone, the stand-in was censored when posted to the main site, it had been about a year ago, and "since then ive been trying to figure out better ways to express my feelings without feeding into bs"

not to mention that glip, intentionally or not, facilitates that echo chamber environment and punishes behavior that goes against one (and rewards echoing/parallel statements with roaring agreement and praise). they have so much to do with the toxic environment and unseen "rules" of the server but they consistently and apparently still deny that or deflect from it. their behavior, especially when virtually unpoliced within their server, is proof enough that their apologies and willingness to change are still currently skin-deep.

so yeah, not only would deleting the server be best, but i personally think it would be an actual step towards being genuine with their apologies.

I agree with you, I think it's very easy to accidentally cultivate an echo chamber, and it doesn't go away just because Marl is gone. However, as an artist who is basically isolated, I can also see how... NOT interacting with fans is basically a death sentence in today's day and age. People no longer expect art from an artist, but rather a personality show as well. It's a bit of a tangent, but I imagine part of the concern is also money loss from essentially making it almost impossible to interact. They barely use twitter (which imo is good) and I imagine if they were to delete their server, they would probably use twitter again which would cause more trouble.
I want to find a good way to engage this problem.

When it comes to apologys, actions always mattered more then words.

I agree.

First off, Glip always surrounds themselves with abusive or sexpesty people, outside of Marl. Mike, Twee, Latiass, Goopy and Omny come to mind off the top of my head. Sometimes, like in the cases of Twee, Mike and Lati, they even get positions of power in these communities. Of course these people will abuse the power Glip gives them in their comminities- Mike definitely did. Even if they're not given power, Glip will keep them around for a long time which allows them to continue hurting Glips vunreble audience.

I agree here as well. I told PK early on months ago that I was shocked they had not banned Goopy. I think PK has a difficult time registering safe sexual boundaries because they are used to having to allow people to push theirs. They claim they ban people quicker now, but, even if I believe that they genuinely believe they are doing what they can, I still feel concern as you do. I recently spoke to them about Mike again. They actually cut contact completely so there's that at least. Mike apparently was weird and clingy about talking to PK again, even very early on, stating that he was open to dating PK but would be too needy because of PK being married to Eevee now... Pk did not even ask.

Speaking of vunreble audience- yeah, vunreble people, whether they be children or people who have difficulties mentally and emotionally are Glips target audience. They're the people who are most attracted to the psuedo-deep bullshit of current day Flora, and the server makes a big deal out of self improvement, which is the sort of "help" these sorts of people are looking for. Guidance on how to fix themselves. Glip even offers fucking comissions about this backwards BDSM "self improvement" stuff. Its a selling point today of current day Flora.

I felt discomfort with the BDSM dom commissions they offered, but I cannot argue that they repeatedly made sure those who bought them were alright with it and understood the weight of it. PK declined a few people for their own emotional health. I don't think PK should be doing these things, but I also can't argue with the fact that people pay for much worse stuff for much higher prices all over the internet, and it's their choice.
Unfortunately, in regards to their audience, I can't say much on that. My own audience has a lot of teens and immature adults, despite really desperately not wanting that to be so. I can sympathize with PK in that regard, in that... there are just many many underage people online, especially in art circles due to younger people being the ones that watch cartoons and read comics.
I don't disagree that it's unsafe for these vulnerable swathes of flora fans, but I also don't know how PK would solve that. I mean, apart from deleting the server, which again, I'm all for, but I do not run it and recognize it's not as easy as just telling PK to do that.

This is in addition to the regular power imbalance that occurs when your run your own fan server. I don't think Glip even realizes the power they hold over these people by virtue of the fact they're fans of Glips work. I remember one time in the server, Glip asked people if they felt like Glip was unapproachable (it was something like this, I don't remember what it was specifically) and everyone in the server and their mother came forward to say "ooooh no Glip, of course that's not true you're so open and kind".

I don't think Glip realized that, of course these people are going to positively reinforce and enable Glips behavior. They're fans of their work. They want Glip to like them.

This is also why surrounding themselves with fans will only serve to hinder Glip from changing themselves for the better. Besides Pengo, everyone around Glip is a fucking enabler.

I understand this as well. It is a small part of the reason why I don't join the flora server. PK needs to be able to at least have outside hobbies apart from flora and not just be surrounded by people who idolize them. (though this is also difficult as they can't really go anywhere or do anything without people kicking up about their KF thread due to how long they spent defending Marl)
I do think they have some concept of the fact that people are more likely to want to agree with them, but I think they don't know how to handle that. I recall they felt stress over not knowing when people are just agreeing with them to agree or because they truly meant it. I recall that was a big point when I spoke to them about my experiences with Marl, because they had spoken to their friends in the past about Marl, and while they did validate them, they felt unable to shake the feeling that some may have just been agreeing because they cared about PK, as opposed to genuinely feeling Marl was terrible.
I think PK's friends genuinely care about them, but I do think it is also possible for them to succumb to groupthink, as demonstrated to me in Hare's scene where Axi and others completely allowed PK to insult Hare while claiming Hare was terrible to respond in kind.
It was a year ago, they may have changed, but as you have stated, actions speak louder than words. They need to go for a long long time without actions that embody that same sort of conflict before I can feel fully comfortable that things have actually changed.

Glips apology comes across as putting a bandaid on a breaking dam. Yeah, I'm glad it's there, it's kinda a step in the right direction. But the issues are still there. Vunreble people will get hurt again in Glips communites- it's not a matter of if but when. Glip, as a person, is not capable of running a safe online community period. (Let alone a safe community that airs everyone's drama under the guise of "self help").

Until Glip takes the steps needed to ensure that history won't repeat itself, by shutting their fucking servers and community they run down. Any apologys they give will ring hollow.

I agree and you have worded your point extremely well. As in, shutting the server down is the most direct, efficient, and effective way that prevents history repeating itself.
There are many things that I think PK should do, and I have talked to them about it and continue to do so, but in the end it's PK's choice. It has to be, or they won't learn anything from me just pushing them into something.
I appreciate the reply, even if as of right now there is not much I can do in that specific regard.

 

[FrickleMyPickle]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm a little concerned at the way you keep referring to Glip and Eevee's behavior as "impulsive." Glip and Eevee's habit of going off on minors and critics -- and Eevee's consistent need to chime in when pedophilia is being discussed -- is consistent and has been going on for years. That's not impulsive, that's something else entirely.

It doesn't sound like you're helping them be better people, it sounds like you're -- unintentionally -- teaching them to be better at hiding it. Thankfully, it's not working.

I felt discomfort with the BDSM dom commissions they offered, but I cannot argue that they repeatedly made sure those who bought them were alright with it and understood the weight of it. PK declined a few people for their own emotional health. I don't think PK should be doing these things, but I also can't argue with the fact that people pay for much worse stuff for much higher prices all over the internet, and it's their choice.
Unfortunately, in regards to their audience, I can't say much on that. My own audience has a lot of teens and immature adults, despite really desperately not wanting that to be so.

I think the difference is that you're not accepting money from these people to specifically draw your fursona emotionally abusing them.

 

[Uncaught Tanuki Disguiser]

I respect you as a person and an artist, @Hatun, but I'm going to do something a bit rude and be an armchair therapist for a moment.

This comment made me wonder:

I think I'm "mystified" in the comic a bit, because I probably mystify PK a bit. They ask a lot why I wanted to talk with them despite the years they had been cruel about me, and I didn't really have a clear reason for them.

Do you think you might be getting something out of this--reconnecting with Glip, that is?

When I picture myself in your shoes, I can imagine how it might feel gratifying to help someone like Glip. I could see myself feeling heroic as I reach out a helping hand to a person who has no one left to help them. And how it might feel good to be the only one who can change them.

I admit that I might be projecting on you too much here. And maybe your psych has brought this up to you already. But just in case they haven't, I thought I should say something... not to attack you, but as a kind of heads-up. If this sounds accurate, just be careful and keep tabs on your own thoughts and feelings so that you don't get in too deep (as others have warned).

 

[Pronoun Party]

Here is the problem with the server as it currently is. We have just discussed how dangerous it can be for creators to run their own fan Discords because of the huge power imbalances. What makes Glip's server a unique powder keg is that for the last several years, the entirety of Floraverse has been centered on plots which are based on real-life drama and emotional turmoil in the server. What this says to the fans is this: "only the most unhinged and mentally broken people get the honor of being noticed by Glip-senpai. I need to be the most crazy, damaged person I can, and dump all my issues on Glip and co, and then I too can be famous!" Glip may mean well, but their current method ensures they will never get a moment of peace. Their server doesn't fix dysfunction, it encourages it, and it will continue to do so as long as being mentally ill gets attention and special drawings from the higher-ups.

The whole thing about "losing fan interaction" is a blatant red herring. Glip will not lose their whole fanbase if they stop these shitty scenes. In fact, they will gain interaction, and decrease harm, if they quit this small-scale drama and go back to the more hands-off, large-scale community events that PMD-E and early Flora had. Stop doing this sad attempt of one-on-one therapy and let everyone participate in fun, engaging little tasks for points or whatever. PMD-E's system was great at maximizing interaction while minimizing the harm Glip could do to anyone. Glip has a million ways they could stop scenes, stop participating personally in the server, and still see their fan engagement skyrocket. But they don't want to do any of those things, because they don't really care about audience engagement, they care about the power trip they get thinking they are some kind of 2deep savior and healer. They can't get that power trip through a big, lighthearted hands-off community event which is why I suspect they will fight this idea tooth and nail and continue to run themselves into the ground.

I suppose part of the idea is also that.. I did nothing to stop Marl when I theoretically could have. People focus on PK not getting Marl in jail immediately, but I also did not. I did try a year after I knew him yes, but did I really try?

I will try to say this as kindly as I can... even if you were to, personally, put Marl behind bars, you would not find redemption. I am sure this has been said a million times but you have no responsibility to try and singlehandedly take down Marl. We criticize Glip for not doing anything because Glip profited off Marl's involvement for years, and continues to milk his actions for pity points and money to this day. You have done no such thing. You did not spend years hand-feeding your fanbase to him or publicly shitting all over his victims. Nobody would say you have any obligation to convince his ex-wife to bring him to justice.

Also: abusive individuals will specifically try to make targets believe that the abuser is all alone, with no one else who understands, and that the target is the only one who can save them. But look around: even if there is a lot of public blowback, Glip is surrounded by lackeys and fans who agree with their every word and spend hours of one-on-one time and hundreds of dollars to support them. Glip is far from being all alone. What does your support network look like in comparison? Out of the two of you, which one is truly lacking for support?

Please stay safe, you seem like a genuinely good person and I want to see you find happiness and peace.