Healthcare Discussion Thread

[Jacknife]

Luna refuses to take buses unless it's an absolute last resort. She wants a taxi or car to drive her to her appointments. Luna used to have access to a Medicare paid transport service, but she and Lurch are trying to sue the service for some devastating knee injury Luna claims she suffered when she walked her fat ass off the transport. So no more government paid appointment transports for Luna, she burned that bridge looking for a payout and an SSDI case.

Can some explain this communist-capitalist hellscape to me where you get no healthcare and and only minimum wage jf you work but junkies get stuffed with all types of free shit?

Is there no Lohnabstand in Murica?

 

[Polexia Aphrodisia]

Can some explain this communist-capitalist hellscape to me where you get no healthcare and and only minimum wage jf you work but junkies get stuffed with all types of free shit?

Is there no Lohnabstand in Murica?

The Wikipedia.de page got absolutely mangled by Google Translate, can you explain what that is?

 

[lottalove]

The Wikipedia.de page got absolutely mangled by Google Translate, can you explain what that is?

It's a concept in German legislation, that the money you get from social services always should be less than what you can earn doing a minimum wage job. That there should be a certain gap (Abstand) between wages (Lohn) and welfare.

 

[multiverse]

Is there no Lohnabstand in Murica?

No, there isn't. When your family is poor they're better off not working and getting all sorts of aide programs (free or very low cost housing, free utilities, food stamps, free breakfast and lunch at school for the kids, maybe a TANF check every month, etc) than working full time at minimum or very low wage jobs.

It's very frustrating for people who ARE motivated to be employed and pay their own way in life, because it's difficult to dig yourself out of this funding gap. Most people give up and decide they're better off spending more time with their children than trying to find work, only to learn their aide has been cut due to earning too much money.

 

[Polychromos]

It's a concept in German legislation, that the money you get from social services always should be less than what you can earn doing a minimum wage job. That there should be a certain gap (Abstand) between wages (Lohn) and welfare.

I'm German and didn't know this term. This is not really true in practice when it comes to German social security. At least not, if you aren't able to work a full time job, because for example you're a single mother. While child care is technically paid for by the state, there aren't enough open spots for every child. You can also earn a little bit of money while getting benefits, without getting less money. So there are certain people, who do benefit by not having a real job. While there are a lot of leeches, there are people I won't even blame for doing this.

The thing is, with Luna it doesn't even matter. Money goes to drugs, no matter how much she has. Lurch originally groomed her for her grandmothers inheritance and they spent it all in like to years (I can't remember the exact timeframe, but it was very short). She does the worst kind of sex work to afford drugs, instead of getting a bottom of the barrel job, where she would probably get more money.

As always, the moral of the story is: "don't get into a long term romantic relationship with your moms drug dealer".

 

[DominoPetachi]

Can some explain this communist-capitalist hellscape to me where you get no healthcare and and only minimum wage jf you work but junkies get stuffed with all types of free shit?

Is there no Lohnabstand in Murica?

I don’t want to PL here, but I have extensive experience with this very subject in USA and Europe, and since you asked the question, I’m going to answer it. I’ll put it under a spoiler for those who have no interest in how these systems actually work.

Spoiler: Muh Free Healthcare

I will say that I am a dual citizen and soon I will have lived in a socialist hellscape longer than I did in the communist-capitalist hellscape as you call it. Why are we even using words like this to describe the systems we live under today. Socialism has many Capitalist features now and Capitalism has been dead in the US since at least the 1980s.

Most Americans are ignorant when it comes to the subject of “free” healthcare and don’t realize how good they have it because they’ve never experienced anything but their own system. The same is true for most Europeans.

Americans have a plethora of healthcare options. Healthcare is usually tied to your employment. Even a shitty Walmart job has a comprehensive healthcare package that includes dental and optometry. Do you have that? No. You pay out of pocket for your dentistry and optometry and so do I.

Now, let’s say you work for an establishment in the US that doesn’t have a healthcare plan like a small
Mom and Pop business or a bar or you’re a self-employed “graphics artist” lol. You have the option to purchase an 80/20 plan through an insurance company like Blue Cross, for example. This is a good option for young people. It cost me a hundred dollars a month for the couple of years that I had it and I still never paid more than 25 dollars for a visit or 30 for a prescription.

If you’re a poor loser ass bitch like Luna, you’re fully covered, especially if you squeezed out a bunch of kids. This is true in a socialist system as well. That’s why so many immigrants have 9343110 kids. The more kids you have the higher the gibs. It still baffles me that Tuna hasn’t had her orange tobacco tooth fixed. Instead, she’s using whitening strips that are destroying whats left of her enamel. At any rate, you can also not pay for anything and just wing it and hope nothing catastrophic happens. It’s your choice.

In Europe, yea your country too, don’t fucking lie, you are only covered for basic healthcare and hospital stays similar to
an HMO plan in The States except an HMO plan actually covers teeth and eyes too. Muh universal health care does NOT. Hospital stays are where the socialist system shines, but that’s not saying much because everything else is pure incompetent dogshit. So is it really all that great? Ask me about my husband’s botched gall bladder surgery.

The social healthcare system is so fucking terrible that I pay out of pocket for private care. Each visit is 250 dollars. Prescription costs remain the same as the public system. Either way, let me reiterate that dental care and optometry are all out of pocket.

Also, medical malpractice isn’t a thing in social healthcare. A doctor can fuck your shit up and the worst thing that will happen to them is they will get moved to a different district. So, can we stop acting like this system is in any way superior when it is demonstrably worse? A downy Walmart greeter gets better coverage than you.

And can we stop using terms like “free” or “the government pays for” xyz? The government doesn’t pay for shit and nothing is free. The government financially rapes you the tax payer and spends your money how it sees fit. The reality is that the comrade double plus good socialist is paying twice as much (in taxes) for half the coverage.

Yes, there are situations where people fall through the cracks or just straight up get fucked by either system. Most of the time it is the result of their own poor planning and decision making skills. However, neither system is particularly superior and you ain’t getting shit for free regardless, unless you are a Luna tier nigger, no matter how much copium you smoke.

 

[Polychromos]

Europe

WTF do you mean by Europe? There are defeneatly several European countries that provide better, more or less free healthcare than the USA. Yes, some of the systems have their downsides and I'm sure there are European countries for which this isn't true.

 

[Stinkyboy]

Must be talkin about untermensch slav countries

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

WTF do you mean by Europe? There are defeneatly several European countries that provide better, more or less free healthcare than the USA.

Read what they wrote. It’s not “free” if you are a tax paying citizen, your taxes pay for that healthcare. It’s baked into the tax code. The tax rate is much higher in western European nations that provide healthcare and social safety net.

Most employed people I know that live in countries with “free govt healthcare” still pay for private insurance that gives them access to faster and better medical treatment than the public system can accommodate. But even without the private insurance they pay for the government healthcare via the taxes they pay - income, property, sales, etc…

Only parasites like Luna get truly free healthcare because they don’t work, don’t pay taxes, they just drain resources from productive societies and its members. Of course corporations get rich from providing medical services to Medicaid patients, so I guess Luna produces endless billable hours for healthcare and social service conglomerates. I guess Luna also pays sales tax when she spends her SNAP welfare bucks on creamsaver. Her small way of paying taxes.

 

[DominoPetachi]

WTF do you mean by Europe? There are defeneatly several European countries that provide better, more or less free healthcare than the USA. Yes, some of the systems have their downsides and I'm sure there are European countries for which this isn't true.

Name one. Western Europe from Scandinavia on down to Italy; Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Greenland, Iceland, Poland, Germany, France, Italy, Scotland, Ireland, England, etc. They all have similar types of “universal” healthcare and none of them include a comprehensive dental or optometry plan. IDK why you’re getting so sensitive about it. I said both systems suck. I guess Euros Ike walking around thinking they’re superior to those filthy yanks. Lol But we literally pay almost twice as much in taxes here for half as much healthcare. That is just straight up reality. You disagreeing with that reality doesn’t make it any less true. Maybe you live in Eastern Europe. If that is so, then I have no clue about your healthcare system. Maybe it is Gucci as fuck.

Person A in the USA has a full coverage HMO plan (including optometry and dental) through his shitty Walmart job. Yeah, he’s only getting like 17 bucks an hour, but at least that root canal only cost him a 50 dollar co-pay.

Person B in Europe is an engineer and makes almost twice as much as Person A, but the corporation he works for doesn’t have to offer a healthcare plan because he is in a socialist country and the tax payers fund it which means a lot more of his earnings are being yanked. His co-pay is still similar to what Person A pays except for dental and optometry which is NOT covered by the universal system. So this poor bastard is ultimately going to pay a lot more than person A for his overall healthcare. Not so “free” after all.

So, who has the better deal? Granted, the corpos in the US are fighting diligently to end that. They’d be perfectly happy not to have to pay for an HMO. They would love it if the cost of healthcare fell totally on the tax payers because they’re greedy bastards. Eventually Americans will get the socialist system, but I really hope they fight for dental and optometry to be included.

To bring this back to Luna, she and those of her ilk actually have it made because it’s ALL covered for her and to my knowledge she doesn’t even have a co-pay like you or I. Free glasses, free operations, free dental work that the dummy isn’t even taking advantage of, free cab rides. And she doesn’t even pay taxes!!! Ain’t that a bitch?

 

[ZB927]

Person A in the USA has a full coverage HMO plan (including optometry and dental) through his shitty Walmart job. Yeah, he’s only getting like 17 bucks an hour, but at least that root canal only cost him a 50 dollar co-pay.

Actually, even employer subsidized premiums are more than most wage slaves can afford. I make decent money for being an office sclub who never went to college. My family premiums for just health insurance alone is $586 per paycheck so almost $1200 per month off the top. You also have to pay the dental premium ($40ish per check) and vision premium ($20ish per check).

Actually, Dental insurance usually only covers $2500 max per year and crowns/root canals are usually only covered at 50%. Vision insurance only covers $130 towards glasses or contacts every 2 years, but frames alone start at about 2 hunned. Some also help out with an additional 30% off but it's the coatings and extra shit that drives up the price.

Health insurance isn't a catch-all either. There is the deductible that you have to meet first and then there is some ratio of coinsurance that you owe until you hit your Out of Pocket max, which is usually in the tens of thousands of dollars. I needed a colonoscopy last year after I met my $1000 deductible, but my coinsurance was 30% - the surgery center alone wanted $1800 but that didn't address the Gastroenterologist or the (likely out of network) anesthesiologist. The surgery center wouldn't even schedule me until I paid 80%. All told, it would have been just south of 5 grand out of pocket for my colonoscopy. That's more than a month's pay for me! My out of pocket max was $13,800.

 

[DominoPetachi]

Actually, even employer subsidized premiums are more than most wage slaves can afford. I make decent money for being an office sclub who never went to college. My family premiums for just health insurance alone is $586 per paycheck so almost $1200 per month off the top. You also have to pay the dental premium ($40ish per check) and vision premium ($20ish per check).

Actually, Dental insurance usually only covers $2500 max per year and crowns/root canals are usually only covered at 50%. Vision insurance only covers $130 towards glasses or contacts every 2 years, but frames alone start at about 2 hunned. Some also help out with an additional 30% off but it's the coatings and extra shit that drives up the price.

Health insurance isn't a catch-all either. There is the deductible that you have to meet first and then there is some ratio of coinsurance that you owe until you hit your Out of Pocket max, which is usually in the tens of thousands of dollars. I needed a colonoscopy last year after I met my $1000 deductible, but my coinsurance was 30% - the surgery center alone wanted $1800 but that didn't address the Gastroenterologist or the (likely out of network) anesthesiologist. The surgery center wouldn't even schedule me until I paid 80%. All told, it would have been just south of 5 grand out of pocket for my colonoscopy. That's more than a month's pay for me! My out of pocket max was $13,800.

So, the tax payer should pay your medical bills instead of the corporation? Or the corporation needs to offer a better plan? I mean, your premium is fucking wild. I’ve never heard of one being that high unless there were a lot of family members or smokers and even then the highest I’ve seen is 300. I’m not really sure what your point is, tbh. I never said your system was superior. My assertion is that “universal healthcare” is neither free nor universal. And although it excels in emergency and hospital care when it comes to costs (plenty about those things that are pisspoor as well), it fails in every other way except child care. As much as we’d like to believe healthcare is a human right, it simply isn’t. Somebody has got to get paid. So, how about the medical industrial complex gets an overhaul and it’s just affordable instead?

Anyway, I’m sure people ‘round these parts are starting to get annoyed at the PLing, so I’m off to read the Jodee thread! Best of luck to you getting the system that you want or at least getting a better provider. Thanks @AssRock for the tip!

 

[ZB927]

I never said your system was superior.

Spoiler: Yuh free healthcare

I never said you did. I was refuting what you DID say, namely:

Even a shitty Walmart job has a comprehensive healthcare package that includes dental and optometry. Do you have that? No. You pay out of pocket for your dentistry and optometry and so do I.

In Europe, yea your country too, don’t fucking lie, you are only covered for basic healthcare and hospital stays similar to
an HMO plan in The States except an HMO plan actually covers teeth and eyes too. Muh universal health care does NOT.

The social healthcare system is so fucking terrible that I pay out of pocket for private care. Each visit is 250 dollars. Prescription costs remain the same as the public system.

Either way, let me reiterate that dental care and optometry are all out of pocket.

They all have similar types of “universal” healthcare and none of them include a comprehensive dental or optometry plan.

Person A in the USA has a full coverage HMO plan (including optometry and dental) through his shitty Walmart job. Yeah, he’s only getting like 17 bucks an hour, but at least that root canal only cost him a 50 dollar co-pay.

"Comprehensive" does not mean what you think it means.

An HMO plan does not "include" or "cover" eyes and teeth - you have to opt and pay for those plans separately. The only procedure that dental covers at 100% is cleanings. Pretty much everything else, including fluoride treatment, is covered at 50%, up to only $2500 per year. Because of how expensive supplies and equipment are, a crown/root canal combo is going to cost you at least $500 out of pocket. This combo will also use almost half of your $2500 max.

Even if you need bitewing xrays, you pay out of pocket for those at like 30% maybe. Some plans used to cover initial xrays but none of my plans lately has covered them 100%. No plans cover orthodontics, implants, dentures or any cosmetic procedures, so if I pop a veneer that my parents paid out of pocket for when I was younger, tough shit. It's considered cosmetic so I have to pay the whole thing. First world problems, I know, but my point is that you have to pay out of pocket pretty much every time you go, in addition to the premiums you've already paid through payroll deduction, post-tax, of course.

Moving on! The only thing that vision insurance covers 100% is the exam fee. If they have to dilate your eyes or do anything different, that is extra. And again, they only cover a small amount towards glasses and contacts every 2 years. The allowance doesn't even cover the frames so again, you are out of pocket every time you go.

Keep in mind too that you are either in or out for these insurances. For instance, you can't opt in, go get glasses and then opt out for the next 2 years. If you opt in to the coverage but can't afford the out of pocket, you can't just cancel the policy to stop the premiums - you gotta pay whether you can use it or not.

Also HMO plans are the bottom rung of plans in America - high premiums, high deductible, high copays, high coinsurance, high OOP max. They are also incredibly restrictive plans, requiring GP visits and referrals for everything (I've had eczema all my life so I don't need to pay the copay to visit the primary care doc for them to give me a referral to one of the 2 dermatologists in town who take my insurance), and the pre-authorization process for specialized care or procedures takes forever. You have very little control over your care and very few options for doctors/facilities. PPO'S are only slightly better but they are far from comprehensive.

How much would you have to pay for a colonoscopy out of pocket? I am genuinely curious because American healthcare costs are the most expensive in the world. Did you know that, under an American health insurance plan, you would have at least 3 different billings as I alluded to before - the doctor, the anesthesiologist and the surgery center/hospital.

Let's say you live in a small town and there are only a couple of Gastroenterologists that take your insurance. The office visit copay is $75 just to meet with the doctor. The doctor you chose only has privileges at one hospital. That hospital only contracts their anesthesiologists and it just so happens that they are out of network for your plan so that is billed at a completely different and much higher rate so now your OOP is even higher. And even though some states have banned budget/surprise billing, you could save up for months to cover the OOP only to get a bill 6 months after surgery for hundreds of dollars more because the prices have gone up since they estimated your portion.

And let's say they found something during the scan. Costs are so high that most couldn't afford treatment, including me. Since I'm carrying the coverage for my family, if I had cancer and can't work, we'd be doubly fucked, losing both my income and our coverage. My family would have no choice but to watch me suffer and die.

And before you go there, I never said your system was superior either.

So, the tax payer should pay your medical bills instead of the corporation?

I never gave an opinion about either option so I have no idea what you're asking. Plus...

I AM a tax payer.

Or the corporation needs to offer a better plan?

I work for a non-profit association. They pay 100% of my health premiums and 50% of my dependent's health premiums. I have to pay 100% of all dental and vision for all of us. Off the top, I'm at almost 15k per year and staring down the barrel of a $3k per person deductible. I still consider myself lucky and am appreciative of what I have.

By "better plan", do you mean cheaper premiums deducted from my, again, post-tax paycheck? Because the cheaper the premiums, the higher the deductible, OOP max and coinsurance, so if they fuck me a little less on the front end, they'll fuck me harder in the background.

Unlike the taxpayer system. You only get fucked once and the amounts are transparent.

I mean, your premium is fucking wild. I’ve never heard of one being that high unless there were a lot of family members or smokers and even then the highest I’ve seen is 300.

How long have you been living abroad?



The subsidy they're referring to is a governmental tax break, when you purchase plans through the "Obamacare" marketplace.

So, how about the medical industrial complex gets an overhaul and it’s just affordable instead?

I would love that. I really, really would.

"My family would have no choice but to watch me suffer and die."

 

[Polychromos]

Thanks for moving these posts in a new thread! I didn't want to shit up Luna's thread more than I already did.
I can't speak for all of Europe, but IMO every person in my country who claims private/extra insurance for dental or optometry is essential is a liar. It's also really cheap, if you get it before you have any problems. Yes, you pay for everyones insurance if you work, but you never have to pay extra for the worst available option, ever! Also, when it comes to dentistry, a lot of state insurances offer extra services, as long as you go to check ups once or twice a year (which is for free). Quite a few dentists also don't fuck with the worst available fillings and won't charge you for the better ones. (This is not based on the dentists being nice, the worst fillings just oftentimes don't hold up as long as they have to fix it for free.) I think a lot of the misconceptions come from people not knowing their rights and blindly believing their long time dentists without getting an extra opinion. Paying "extra" for a root canal sounds like absolute insanity to me!