Dualism despite apparent mind-brain dependence?

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ToroidalBoat

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True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Dołączono
29 Mar 2014
Do you think there is a good way to explain how there can be an immortal soul, despite the apparent dependence of the mind on a brain?

:thinking:

BTW that one "radio receiver" analogy isn't satisfactory to me, as stuff that happens to the body (such as booze) should not be able to impact the mind (like getting drunk).
 
BTW that one "radio receiver" analogy isn't satisfactory to me, as stuff that happens to the body (such as booze) should not be able to impact the mind (like getting drunk).
I've heard the sorts who believe this explain it as "the mind is a byproduct of the interaction between body and soul in the same way sound is a byproduct of interaction between receiver and radio signal. A receiver behaving abnormally may produce a distorted sound even though the signal itself is fine."
 
BTW there is one way there could be an afterlife: God recreating a mind in an immortal way of existence, and it is with the same consciousness, rather than a duplicate mind.

Reincarnation is a form of hell to me. Life as a limited being of flesh in one life kinda sucks at best, but over and over and over? Any horrible thing of mortality that you can think of, no matter how unlikely, becomes more likely or certain given enough lives: being a rape victim, being born to be a lolcow, born under a commie dictatorship ...
 
an immortal soul
If that is the starting point, then the question becomes how to distort the evidence to fit this thing that is being presupposed. But that's backwards. It's nonsensical to start with an ungrounded position and then demand that reality accommodates it. You gotta start with the actual causal order.
And the causality shows that injury, anesthesia, alcohol, age, all of these changes to the brain also change consciousness. If you destroy enough brain tissue, no mind will be left. That is direct evidence that consciousness depends on a living brain.
Invoking the notion of a "soul" that's exempt from causality explains nothing. If a thing has no testable interaction with reality, then by definition it cannot explain anything. At that point, "soul" is a word that refers to nothing in the world, an inherently incoherent notion.
 
Reincarnation is a form of hell to me. Life as a limited being of flesh in one life kinda sucks at best, but over and over and over? Any horrible thing of mortality that you can think of, no matter how unlikely, becomes more likely or certain given enough lives: being a rape victim, being born to be a lolcow, born under a commie dictatorship ...
I see reincarnation as a form of ultimate justice, since your contribution to the world will set how you will live in the future. If you want to go even more extreme there is the idea of there only being one true soul in the universe, and reincarnation is endless and timeless, you can reincarnate as your parents, so it's all a zero sum game.
 
Theres zero inherent law that requires a dual mind body set up to have no feedback on your experiential senses for stuff that happens to the body. And it doesn't really make sense not to regardless.

As for afterlife there is no requirement for dualism AFAICT. Some modern day religions with the former don't have the latter and early judaism/christianity according to some originally conceived the afterlife more as a resurrection of the body.
 
Do you think there is a good way to explain how there can be an immortal soul, despite the apparent dependence of the mind on a brain?
Current soyience has barely grasped the surface of the human brain and much of it is still a mystery. We have a very primitive model and general idea of how certain things function but have no high level grasp of complex functions like memory or dreams or other processes.

Anyone who claims we do is just regurgitating talking points from pop-science that are factually misleading or based on untested hypothesis (The Replication Crisis)

The only way your question can be answered currently is through philosophy. Qualia and metacognition are hard problems and until we approach the next level of understanding of our physical brain and how it interacts with the world and our own thought processes, there is no way to materially prove anything.

My belief is just like you said - the "radio receiver" analogy. Consciousness and the physical brain exist in two different states. That's why there is something rather then nothing, something something cogito, ergo sum.

Because you are aware of your existence and there isn't just nothing at all there has to be some representation of you. If it was just a biological thing or something strictly material like "chemicals in the brain" why would that happen at all? While I don't know the answer, "Existence" being a emergent property of evolution is perhaps the most fucking retarded of them all and the one often spouted by R*ddit athiests.
 
Wasn't there an experiment where they cut the two brain lobes off and it became 2 "people" ?
Did you mean that connectors between the 2 lobes severed, making 2 different awarenesses?
Split-brain experiment. It didn't create two people, it exposed the second one that already exists.

This video is 9 years old, we know even more now, it's not just right-brain-left-brain but also "gut"*, and possibly even organs**.

*
Scientists have identified more than 100 million neurons, the cells responsible for transmitting electric signals across the nervous system, in the human gut. Together, they make up the enteric nervous system, which communicates with the brain and controls bodily functions, such as digestion and metabolism, and signals feelings of hunger or satiety, Sahn explains.

The gut also produces 90% of the body’s serotonin, the neurotransmitter that is associated with feelings of happiness and influences sleep, memory, sex drive, and other behaviors. It’s sometimes referred to as the second brain.

**
1759774589488.png

Yeah that does pose a challenge to believing consciousness can immediately survive death.
More things in heaven and earth, Horatio.
Are "you" perhaps larger and more profound than just the thing reading these words right now? Is the part of your brain that lacks access to language not still "you"? Why diminish your existence to only the part of you that can communicate in language?
 
Gut brains are real? This have given me a horrifying realisation.

We live in Warhammer 40k and reddit is right about popculture being the basis of observable reality. Meme magic. Trump got elected because 4chan willed it.

Tzeentch: Jews.
Slaanesh: Troons.
Nurgle: Indians.
Khorne: Muslims.
 
Was mind-brain dependence supposedly disproving the soul addressed? If so, how?
I'm very glad you asked.

"Dependence" was never proven. All that's known is that the two interact (and this was pretty much always understood anyhow). The so-called "interaction problem" isn't a real (logical) problem either: it doesn't matter whether you understand the exact mechanism if the inverse (reductive physicalism) is logically impossible. It's logically necessary that the mind is distinct from the body for reasons discussed by philosophers from Aristotle up to Searle.

I'll give an example:
the only difference between human and machine intelligence is order of complexity, and the fact that we have the design docs for the latter
This statement expresses the reductive physicalist position in its most consistent form: the mind is generally assumed to be a computer, which is the only way it could really "work" if reductive physicalism were true.

There are a lot of reasons why this is impossible, though; I'll go over three big ones. Aside from the first (the Halting Problem), the following arguments can be found in Edward Feser's* excellent introductory textbook to the Philosophy of Mind:

*I'm neither a Thomist nor a Roman Catholic and wouldn't recommend most of Ed Feser's stuff outside of this book unless you're interested in understanding contemporary Thomism. He's just very solid on this subject.

Halting problem:
Algorithms can't intuit recursion. You know that old paradox of evaluating the truth or falsehood of the statement "this sentence is a lie"? How it goes back and forth forever ("If it's true, that means it's a lie and therefore false; if it's false, that means it's not a lie and therefore true—ad infinitum")? A computer can't figure that out just by looking at the problem, and it's because they just follow sets of instructions. We dont. You could write a program to recognize one or even a big set of paradoxes, but you can't give it the faculty that lets it understand when a problem leads to an infinite regress from the outset. Machines can't intuit.


Chinese Room Argument:
You're put in a room with a slot in the door and book on the table. A Mandarin speaking Chinese man hands you something in Chinese through the slot. The book contains written instructions for converting Chinese input into Chinese output: you follow these instructions and hand the Chinese man a response through the slot. To him, it reads like he and you are having a natural conversation in Chinese. Does that mean you or that room have actual knowledge of the meaning of what's being said? Of course not; you're just manipulating symbols. But that's all a computer does, which means that the mind can't be a computer.

Computers have no understanding of semantics, and if you say that humans don't either you're entering into a logical contradiction. You can't make the truth and knowledge claim that truth and knowledge are impossible to attain to. For a quick rundown of the collapse of Western autonomous epistemology (and a proof of God, which the essence-energies distinction completes by explaining how a transcendent Deity can be immanent in the world), see the attached "The Contingency of Knowledge and Revelatory Theism". There's also a lot of back and forth about this stuff on my profile.

Mary's Room Argument:
Imagine a girl named Mary who lives in a black-and-white room and has never seen the color red. You give her every book about red and all the objective facts about it, such as wavelength and emotional associations it's known to have. Later, you take her outside and show here a rose—is she getting any new information? Of course she is, which means there's something called "qualia": raw subjective experience independent of matter.
 

Załączniki

The soul is a mirroring backup to the brain. The brain is responsible for conscious thought and learning, and upon its death the soul becomes a static copy. If you choose to wander the earth you will slowly degrade onto a wraith because the soul is incapable of ingesting new information on its own, when it gets to heaven it's installed into an angel brain where it can resume conscious thought and learning.
 
BTW that one "radio receiver" analogy isn't satisfactory to me, as stuff that happens to the body (such as booze) should not be able to impact the mind (like getting drunk).
Why shouldn't it be able to do that? It's (at the very least) effecting how the body carries sensory impressions to your mind. When the mind separates from the body it gets a lot faster (according to OBE's and NDE's cross-culturally); it's not unreasonable that the body's courser materiality would have an effect on both perception and cognition, which we know are linked (just try out the famous selective attention test):


Cognition can alter or impact perception and vice-versa.

Conscious experience and cognitive function are complex and kind of delicate in their structure, even apart from substance abuse. Take the phenomenology of psychosis, for example (pdf related).

Adding to that, I think there's another assumption you're working with here that isn't entirely justified: you seem to be assuming that sensory processes are bodily, but not cognitive—in other words, you seem to be conflating our thinking and reasoning faculty with our raw subjective awareness. Those are different faculties. Alcohol effects the senses and reasoning faculty, but you still have your raw subjectivity (the faculty bound up with what's known as the nous, meaning literally "heart" and signifying the deepest part of the soul).

The human being is a composite of body, mind, and nous. This also seems to in some sense be a descending scale of materiality.
 

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Ostatnio edytowane:
"Dependence" was never proven.
Why shouldn't it be able to do that? It's effecting how the body carries sensory impressions to your mind.
If thinking is done by some immaterial entity beyond the brain, then brain damage or just altered states of consciousness should not be able to alter the thinking, much less change the personality. If that radio receiver analogy were true, I would be controlling and getting sensory input from the body as if from afar. And if anything happened to the body or brain, I would lose some amount of control or feedback, but the mind should be unaffected. But instead, I see if I'm delirious from a fever, thinking is altered.
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
If thinking is done by some immaterial entity beyond the brain, then brain damage or just altered states of consciousness should not be able to alter the thinking, much less change the personality. I think I mentioned earlier that one radio receiver analogy used to defend dualism, but it is not convincing to me. Even if I want to believe dualism is real. If the radio receiver analogy were true, I would be observing and controlling my body as if from afar -- and if anything happened to the body or brain, I would lose some degree of control, but I myself should be unaffected. But instead and for example, I see that if I'm very tired or delirious from a fever, then the thinking is altered.
You replied before I was done editing that last post, so maybe the new stuff in there addresses some of what you're saying.

It wouldn't be from afar; your soul is in your body. When people have out of body experiences, it does go outside of the body and you do see it.

And yeah, it really seems like what's tripping you up is thinking that your thinking is "too spiritual" of a property to be effected by the body, when the rational-discursive faculty is actually distinct from the nous and typically grouped much closer to the senses. Traditionally thoughts and sense-impressions are understood as occurring in the subtle pneuma (an "astral body" type idea). The nous is the part that's farther beyond that.

You could say that the nous is where the deeper principles of things are known and understood, and that thought is where those principles are "represented" through something like a subtler sensory impression in the imagination.

Maybe that's even an oversimplification, but the point is that we're dealing with several gradations of faculties more-and-less bound to the body.
 
This statement expresses the reductive physicalist position in its most consistent form: the mind is generally assumed to be a computer, which is the only way it could really "work" if reductive physicalism were true.

that was not my claim. my claim is that there's no definitive way to demonstrate that machines are not conscious, that "sentience" is a loaded term and not necessarily a valid way to judge machine intelligence, that the nature of human consciousness and intelligence is not understood, and that you have no effective way of differentiating yourself between any other thing showing signs of consciousness other than your own internally developed heuristic, which is almost certainly incomplete because it's based on incomplete perception of an incomplete data set. I do not argue that the mind is merely a computer, nor do I argue that it is not.

There are a lot of reasons why this is impossible, though; I'll go over three big ones. Aside from the first (the Halting Problem), the following arguments can be found in Edward Feser's* excellent introductory textbook to the Philosophy of Mind:

all you've demonstrated is that machine intelligence is not like human intelligence in certain ways, at this point in time. you can draw similar contrasts between animal intelligence and human intelligence, and you can also observe that animal intelligence exhibits surprisingly human-like qualities as it gains in complexity. the difference is that animals are not becoming more intelligent, at least in the short term, while machines are becoming rapidly more advanced (at least compared to the pace of evolution). who's to say that even these differences won't disappear with sufficient advancement? all these Proper Nouns and thought experiments and textbook citations amount to precisely dick. like I said before, it's all academic, the incompleteness of human perception and knowledge is an intractable problem and there's no way to argue your way around it.
 
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