DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

[Humble Architect]

There is a point to be said in some villains being way too fucking nasty but I’m glad it’s contained to the space villians.

Henshaw doing what he did to Metallo’s sister was hilarious but so horrible that him (in his literal next appearance) trying to rez his wife has no tragedy, get that ass banned back to the zone.

Mongul’s always been a sex pest and the implication is pretty obvious with that one (because of the implication) and yellow Caligula gets away with it by not being a mainstream villain. Honestly him and Doctor Light are probably best buddies.

Brainiac is robot Pinhead and actually just a sadistic monster. It’s awesome the glowup he got from Geoff Johns and he literally just keeps climbing. Vril-Dox being the ghost of Christmas Future for Lex is smart and reinforces that Lex isn’t just a rogue like Joker, he’s arguably supporting cast and co-lead more often than not.

But the Earth villains are mostly their own league, Clark always tries to help and it’s clear that he genuinely cares and in the case of Parasite recently getting a job and a life, he wants that.

He’s a good man but he’s more human than Batman and with that comes an ability to do something like kill an evil piece of shit and still go on being a good man but it also means Clark has a temper, which is pretty consistent.

@Mystery Spy Superman’s willingness to kill and not make a big deal of it comes down to the Clark/Kal-El balance. The more Clark he is, like that being the “true” identity, then he’s gonna be more willing, typically. It comes back to every iteration being a different guy and Post-Crisis, they brought back some Golden Age cowboy into the mix and you get a Superman more willing to be a bit more macho and cocky while he whoops ass.

Wheras the Silver Age guy, who was more Kal-El typically avoided it at all costs.

I always like Superman being done with Darkseid, like post-2000 he is so over it. Going after Kara was the last straw and he fucking yoinked Darkseid into the Source Wall. Dark Apocalypse War gave a good one after Lois died and Clark excised Trigon through sheer rage, then proceeded to start beating Darkseid into a smear.

 

[Polyboros2]

Superman 2 is honestly dogshit, I hadn't seen the movies in decades until last year and I couldn't believe what a piece of shit it was. I can understand it was iconic for it's time, but it's boring most of the way through, it's sitcom-y at times, and Clark is a petty bully. Reeves performance I think is the only saving grace.

 

[Incecticyder]

Keep the JLU characterization where the man gives zero fucks if it is Darkseid and maybe Luthor. I think Supes being ready and willing to stomp Darkseid’s ass into the pavement upon just seeing him makes a lot of sense.

Generally, the more angry Clark of that universe is probably the best way of going about it. He clearly still values second chances, but he also has a much more defined boiling point where he will take drastic action compared to the rest of the League. Makes sense the guy with the weight of the world on his shoulders is a little more willing to “do the needful” and remove potential escalations compared to his colleagues.

The DCAU versions had limits to their desire to not kill. People forget that.

I still feel like there is a fine line, and a reason Henry Cavill felt like he needed to justify his Superman not wanting to kill ever again. There's a reason him killing Joker and Luthor were the origins of his evil alternate selves.

Killing for superheroes should never be wanted. However, sometimes we have to do things we don't want. Honestly, the dumbest scenes from that movie were Pa Kent telling Clark not to save people and him going inside a tornado. The real Pa Kent would have decided to find ways to use the powers without attracting attention. Also, he wouldn't traumatize his kid.

 

[BubbaRobot887]

The DCAU versions had limits to their desire to not kill. People forget that.


Killing for superheroes should never be wanted. However, sometimes we have to do things we don't want. Honestly, the dumbest scenes from that movie were Pa Kent telling Clark not to save people and him going inside a tornado. The real Pa Kent would have decided to find ways to use the powers without attracting attention. Also, he wouldn't traumatize his kid.

Yeah that scene was retarded, In the series Lois and Clark, Clark makes the Superman suite after talking to his parents about how to save people without attracting attention to Clark Kent. The movie created a problem a 20 year old TV show had already solved.

 

[Incecticyder]

Yeah that scene was retarded, In the series Lois and Clark, Clark makes the Superman suite after talking to his parents about how to save people without attracting attention to Clark Kent. The movie created a problem a 20 year old TV show had already solved.

You could argue that it was too early for the suit but even then there were other options. He could have gone to call for help at superspeed. He could have dug under the bus to buy time. Superman is well known to think on his feet. Have him formulate a plan and show that skill of his. Snyder was a bit too keen to break his characters.

 

[Beelzebub's Lawyer]

It's a lack of a desire to kill or of considering killing as a first option

That's in general what separates heroes from villains.
Unless you're making something silly like Arnold's Commando where the "hero" is a cold blooded murderer who is way worse than the movie's villains, you should stick to this rule.

Superman 2 is honestly dogshit

To me, the worst thing was him giving up his powers because.... something.
They never explained it properly, my only guess is that he wanted kids with Lois and he would destroy her during sex unless he lost his powers

I can understand it was iconic for it's time

It was the 1st time we saw a superpowered fight scene on the big screen.

Clark is a petty bully

Yeah, he is kind of a dick in parts of the movie.

Honestly, the dumbest scenes from that movie were Pa Kent telling Clark not to save people and him going inside a tornado. The real Pa Kent would have decided to find ways to use the powers without attracting attention. Also, he wouldn't traumatize his kid.

The comic books made John Kent die of a heart attack to give Clark soe perspective.
Even he can't save everyone.
However, Snyder and Goyer are manchildren so they didn't understand it and the scenario they gave us in MoS is exactly something that superman could prevent and does prevent regularly.

 

[Incecticyder]

The comic books made John Kent die of a heart attack to give Clark soe perspective.
Even he can't save everyone.
However, Snyder and Goyer are manchildren so they didn't understand it and the scenario they gave us in MoS is exactly something that superman could prevent and does prevent regularly.

That is it. Superman can stop the Apocalypse but he can't save a man from a heart attack. There is some grounding there. Snyder, while understanding Superman better than Gunn, is still someone who thinks "brooding = cool". That might work for Batman but it doesn't work for Superman. To such people, "cool is dark" and "dark is cool". Superman isn't that guy and neither is Clark.

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

Superman 2 is honestly dogshit, I hadn't seen the movies in decades until last year and I couldn't believe what a piece of shit it was. I can understand it was iconic for it's time, but it's boring most of the way through, it's sitcom-y at times, and Clark is a petty bully. Reeves performance I think is the only saving grace.

tbh I've never really dug the Reeves movies outside of Reeves himself, even as a kid when they were still fresh
he's really great at being Clark and Superman, but yeah they have a LOT of stupid shit, some of it is just normal stupid comic book logic like "reverse Earth's rotation = turn back time" but yeah the magic cellophane S logo attack is literally the sort of shit you see them pull out of their ass in a video game where the hero now pukes his logo at guys instead of punching them

 

[BubbaRobot887]

I am not sure Ps Kent had ever died in the comics before the 78 movie, I think that was something the movie did and then they added it to the comics.

 

[That Chris Guy]

I am not sure Ps Kent had ever died in the comics before the 78 movie, I think that was something the movie did and then they added it to the comics.

The comic books made John Kent die of a heart attack to give Clark soe perspective.
Even he can't save everyone.

The original movie really did nail John Kent's death perfectly. It's not just disturbingly accurate to life for a superhero movie, but it's a humbling of Clark's character, immediately following on from him running faster than a train to show off.

 

[BubbaRobot887]

The original movie really did nail John Kent's death perfectly. It's not just disturbingly accurate to life for a superhero movie, but it's a humbling of Clark's character, immediately following on from him running faster than a train to show off.

There is a reason my three favorite films of all time are Citizen Kane, The Adventures of Robin Hood, and Superman: the movie.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

Zod had said he was going to kill everyone on earth and was threatening a family while Superman pleaded with him to stop, so not sure how he broke this rule in Man of Steel.

In Superman 2 Zod was no threat to anyone and Superman just brutally murdered him while smiling, yet that is the one no one complains about.

You could chalk it up to moral standards evolving over the years. There's far more discussion of ethical treatment for criminals now than there was back in the 80s.

Superman shouldn't have a "No Kill" rule. He should have a "No Kill" desire. Batman has such a rule because he doesn't trust himself to not fall to a slippery slop. Superman IS trustworthy. That is half his shtick. The Elite were authoritarians who liked power and the ability to kill. "Fun to kill." That is what Superman was fighting against.

Another thing that separates Superman from the Elite is his ability to use his powers nonviolently. One of my favorite exchanges in Superman vs. The Elite is Manchester Black admitting that his team's more suited to beat people up than say, save people from a flooding train tunnel. It's only when Superman leads the rescue effort that the team are able to use their powers creatively.

In general, I feel like that's a part of the argument that gets left out. It's easy to kill someone and be done with it, but a true test of your resolve is working to find an alternative that ends the threat without getting anyone killed.

Because it's an old ass movie filmed in like 1978.
If it came out today, people would rip it to shreds for tons of things such as Superman pulling out this weird ability out of his ass:

Still not as dumb as Superman's Great-Wall-of-China-Repairing-Vision from Quest for Peace.

The comic books made John Kent die of a heart attack to give Clark soe perspective.
Even he can't save everyone.
However, Snyder and Goyer are manchildren so they didn't understand it and the scenario they gave us in MoS is exactly something that superman could prevent and does prevent regularly.

Say what you will about the newest Superman movie, but they at least kept Pa Kent alive instead of having him fall into a wood chipper or something stupid like that.

 

[BubbaRobot887]

Mercy for the guilty is cruility towards the inocent.

If you let a murderer walk just so you can feel better about yourself you are commiting murder through them.

Taking the life of a murderer shows how much we value life, not the opposite.

 

[Incecticyder]

Another thing that separates Superman from the Elite is his ability to use his powers nonviolently. One of my favorite exchanges in Superman vs. The Elite is Manchester Black admitting that his team's more suited to beat people up than say, save people from a flooding train tunnel. It's only when Superman leads the rescue effort that the team are able to use their powers creatively.

In general, I feel like that's a part of the argument that gets left out. It's easy to kill someone and be done with it, but a true test of your resolve is working to find an alternative that ends the threat without getting anyone killed.

This. Superheroes should do more than fight.

Mercy for the guilty is cruility towards the inocent.

If you let a murderer walk just so you can feel better about yourself you are commiting murder through them.

Taking the life of a murderer shows how much we value life, not the opposite.

To an extend yes but there are issues with that. Killing someone when you need his testimony can be very counterproductive. Also, vigilante justice will be tolerated only to a point. No one is saying that the criminals should keep all their teeth. But it should be said that the issue comes from the cardboard prisons.

 

[The Nothingness]

Say what you will about the newest Superman movie, but they at least kept Pa Kent alive instead of having him fall into a wood chipper or something stupid like that.

Pa Kent still being alive in the DCAU was wholesome, especially in the Justice League Christmas episode where he reveals Ma and him used to wrap Clark's gifts with lead only for Clark to say Santa wrapped them.

 

[UnKillFill]

Mercy for the guilty is cruility towards the inocent.

If you let a murderer walk just so you can feel better about yourself you are commiting murder through them.

Taking the life of a murderer shows how much we value life, not the opposite.

In the real world (which comics obviously are not) someone like Batman or even Superman, should not unilaterally have the power to kill villains.
But I do agree, villains like the Joker *absolutely* should have been legally put to death after the Xth time they broke out of prison and went on an unrepentant killing spree.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

This. Superheroes should do more than fight.


To an extend yes but there are issues with that. Killing someone when you need his testimony can be very counterproductive. Also, vigilante justice will be tolerated only to a point. No one is saying that the criminals should keep all their teeth. But it should be said that the issue comes from the cardboard prisons.

I suspect that Ace Chemicals employs half of Gotham's populace, hence why they still continue to exist despite repeated instances of poison gas attacks linked to super villains. The other half work for Legal Aid.

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

Great-Wall-of-China-Repairing-Vision

that was some wonderful "I also have that power"
M78 Nebula would be proud

 

[Overly Serious]

I like @Basic Blond Boy 's take and I would like to add two additional things to everything he said.

One is that some of this comes about through what are on some level more isolated stories and turning them into an ongoing canon. Comics used to be more a story a kid would read at the time and wasn't so much meant to be "but ten years ago in this story..." stuff. So when people criticise Batman for not killing Joker or such, well that would be less of an issue in one story - a madman kidnaps some people and plants a bomb, Batman stops him. Self-contained, you don't have the issue of re-interpreting ethics through long-term consequences. Maybe the clown villain stays in prison or is cured or only escapes once more. It's an issue of there being two different models in which comics are read and viewed. And I would say that once upon a time, the less continuity-focused model was the prevailing one. Now that nobody buys them and they're only read by people who scour wikis for inconsistencies with stories two decades ago, the fact that Joker has escaped 150+ times becomes an issue where it wasn't before.

The second is that it's erroneous to put the responsibility of the hero for this. Batman is right to hand over the Joker to the police. The question should be why Gotham's courts don't send Joker to the chair? It should not be on a hero to kill some villain in the normal circumstances and it's correct that he shouldn't. Maybe a little more of an exception in Superman's case because it's not like a court can execute Darkseid or other villains on Superman's level, but that's an exception.

The reason courts don't do this in the comics of course is for external business reasons as others have mentioned. But my point is whatever the meta reason for it, it shouldn't be the heroes who are blamed for not killing their foes if that is justified. In most cases.

. But like @Basic Blond Boy said even in the DCAU he expressed desire to kill Darkseid in a fight.

Darkseid did turn Kara into a stripper, so...

 

[BubbaRobot887]

I have no problem with what Darkseid did here.