DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

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Superman has always had a no-kill rule, but it’s one he has historically broken and should be willing to do so again but only in extreme circumstances.

Yeah I know. That's why I said "except in extreme cases" and gave the Doomsday example. Not even Batman complained about that kill, did he?

I imagined someone would bring up the zod execution thing. Yeah I am aware of it. To that I say, wasn't that supposed to be shocking instead of something that happens regularly?

It goes without saying they all, Batman included, would if the situation is extreme enough. Well written or not, they had Batman shot Darkseid with an intent to kill in canon.

I still think Superman used to have a very high moral standard of not killing too, almost as strict if not just as strict, as Batman. But the new gaslight is that "he generally doesn't kill, but would totally."

People are forgetting Superman killing Zod in the Man of steel got a lot of complaints that it was out character. It was shocking because Snyder was yet again being edgy and writing him out of character to "deconstruct" him. Now the gaslight is that has always been the norm.
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
Why does Superman get a pass for murdering a depowered Zod in Superman 2?

I am aware of the deleted scene that was shown on the ABC tv version of thr movie but that isn't in any of the home vixeo cuts, it wasn't shown in theaters, and it isn't shown on tv today.

What we see in Superman 2 is Superman breaking the hand of a depowered Zod that is no threat to anyone(we know this because Superman got his ass handed to him by a rando at a truck stop when he was depowered)and the Superman tosses Zod in a pit where the force of the throw alone should kill him, to say nothing of the drop.

Why is that okay?

Is it okay because Reeves Superman is smiling when he does it and no one was in danger from Zod?
 
Why does Superman get a pass for murdering a depowered Zod in Superman 2?

I am aware of the deleted scene that was shown on the ABC tv version of thr movie but that isn't in any of the home vixeo cuts, it wasn't shown in theaters, and it isn't shown on tv today.

What we see in Superman 2 is Superman breaking the hand of a depowered Zod that is no threat to anyone(we know this because Superman got his ass handed to him by a rando at a truck stop when he was depowered)and the Superman tosses Zod in a pit where the force of the throw alone should kill him, to say nothing of the drop.

Why is that okay?

Is it okay because Reeves Superman is smiling when he does it and no one was in danger from Zod?
It’s because in some cuts of that movie, Zod kills a kid and he deserves the humbling before death.
Yeah I know. That's why I said "except in extreme cases" and gave the Doomsday example. Not even Batman complained about that kill, did he?

I imagined someone would bring up the zod execution thing. Yeah I am aware of it. To that I say, wasn't that supposed to be shocking instead of something that happens regularly?

It goes without saying they all, Batman included, would if the situation is extreme enough. Well written or not, they had Batman shot Darkseid with an intent to kill in canon.

I still think Superman used to have a very high moral standard of not killing too, almost as strict if not just as strict, as Batman. But the new gaslight is that "he generally doesn't kill, but would totally."

People are forgetting Superman killing Zod in the Man of steel got a lot of complaints that it was out character. It was shocking because Snyder was yet again being edgy and writing him out of character to "deconstruct" him. Now the gaslight is that has always been the norm.
The gaslight isn’t that it was always the norm, it’s just Superman’s relationship to the different eras of comics is a bit different. Golden Age, Silver Age/early Bronze, Post-Crisis and New 52 are all very different characters, very different Supermen with different personalities and values.

Superman is the most severe version of this, with all of his different iterations being defined as different characters, with different endings, unlike others who just carry on, business as usual when the status quo shuffles. Like Batman in N52 who had thirty years of career shoved into ten, just so he could pick up where he left off.
 
So there is some cut of the movie I have never seen on any of the dvds where Zod kills a kid and that makes Superman killing him in Superman 2 fine but Zod killed many kids in Man of Steel and said he was going to murder every human on earth in Man of Steel so that make Superman killing him in that movie wrong?
 
So there is some cut of the movie I have never seen on any of the dvds where Zod kills a kid and that makes Superman killing him in Superman 2 fine but Zod killed many kids in Man of Steel and said he was going to murder every human on earth in Man of Steel so that make Superman killing him in that movie wrong?
For context, it could’ve been Faora or Non, it’s been years and literally the version of the movie you watch is different based on streaming service and location, there’s a dozen cuts of Superman II. During a zoom call watch session back in plague times, we got an hour in before everyone realized to our horror, we were all watching different cuts.

No, I think outside the comic dorks who still thought Clark was the silver age Boy Scout, nobody notable had a problem with Clark killing Zod. Anyone who actually followed Superman knew that the post-crisis guy wasn’t a fake……. but Superman was an ideal that Clark, the man wasn’t.

"So, you're not just a boy scout."
Never even got my first badge."
-Flash and Superman.
 
"So, you're not just a boy scout."
Never even got my first badge."
-Flash and Superman.
I actually really hate this exchange. Superman doesn't have to be the perfect boyscout, but there's no reality where didn't get at least *a* merit badge.
RCO009_1739624376.jpg
 
Is it okay because Reeves Superman is smiling when he does it and no one was in danger from Zod?
Because people didn't use to be faggots with made-up "no kill" rules for their funny books. Not a single person batted(!) an eye when Keatonman threw goons off the roof or set them on fire and the world was better for it.
 
Because people didn't use to be faggots with made-up "no kill" rules for their funny books. Not a single person batted(!) an eye when Keatonman threw goons off the roof or set them on fire and the world was better for it.
There is a reason Batman Returns is my favorite Batman movie.

I watch it every Christmas.

I have no more problem with heroes killing villains than I do with police shooting a nut who is shooting up a school.

It is so odd to me that people freak out over heroes killing people who's goal is to murder every person on earth.
 
There is a reason Batman Returns is my favorite Batman movie.

I watch it every Christmas.

I have no more problem with heroes killing villains than I do with police shooting a nut who is shooting up a school.

It is so odd to me that people freak out over heroes killing people who's goal is to murder every person on earth.
Superman taking bad guys into the Sun is the coolest fucking thing ever.

“Nooooooo, this cool thing is bad, um actually.”

Superman unleashing the full kit against Brainiac,, Doomsday, Henshaw, Darkseid, Mongul and Zod is based and fighting to kill these guys makes him more noble not less. He may not like killing, but he’s gonna stomach it because they’re insane genocidal monsters, most of which have billions of lives under their belt and if he fails or holds back, his loved ones are next in their crosshairs.
 
Is it okay because Reeves Superman is smiling when he does it and no one was in danger from Zod?
I thought Reeve roughing up the trucker was more of a dick move than Cavill killing Zod. If I lived in Metropolis, I wouldn't be going "zomg this alien is mad with power", I'd be complaining he didn't kill him faster.
 
Don't get me wrong, I am not a purist or similar.

But for me personally it has always been hard to see Batman's no kill as a real moral standard instead of cynycal attempt by writers to justify why his very profitable villains are still around.

Was even more ridiculous with Batfleck. You have to wonder that if his Batman is willing to kill then why is his Joker still alive?
 
It is so odd to me that people freak out over heroes killing people who's goal is to murder every person on earth.
I may be more old-fashioned, but I personally believe that if heroes choose to kill their villains, it should only be done as a last resort. If the Anti-Monitor is about to wipe out all of reality, I'd be okay with killing him. If Two-Face is trying to rob a bank, I'd at least try to apprehend him non-violently first.
I thought Reeve roughing up the trucker was more of a dick move than Cavill killing Zod.
I feel like it would have worked better if the trucker was about to beat up another wimp, only Superman steps in and scares him away without lifting a finger.
 
I may be more old-fashioned, but I personally believe that if heroes choose to kill their villains, it should only be done as a last resort. If the Anti-Monitor is about to wipe out all of reality, I'd be okay with killing him. If Two-Face is trying to rob a bank, I'd at least try to apprehend him non-violently first.
Zod had said he was going to kill everyone on earth and was threatening a family while Superman pleaded with him to stop, so not sure how he broke this rule in Man of Steel.

In Superman 2 Zod was no threat to anyone and Superman just brutally murdered him while smiling, yet that is the one no one complains about.
 
I mean, I've never seen Superman as anywhere close to the same level as Batman on the 'No Kill Rule'. He doesn't like killing, and he'll look for a workaround if he can find it, but he's more than willing to go 'Sit down before I put you down.' if the situation calls for it. It's simply that, for a being as powerful as him and who ahs witnessed all the comic book bullshit, he knows that there's rarely a situation that doesn't have a workaround. Though, I feel like the 'No Kill' rule has always more been a 'Don't be a sadistic executioner' rule.

Like, his problem with the Elite wasn't just that they killed villains, it's that they did as a first resort, had no care for any of the knock on effects of their actions, and were mostly power hungry jackasses who cared more about having an excuse to abuse their powers than building a better tomorrow. The core problem of the story is that the Elite's philosophy basically boils down to 'We have the power, so we get to decide everyone's fate' and treats being at all responsible or held accountable for the power you wield is a childish dream of an outdate super hero. He wouldn't fault a police officer for killing in self-defence, because they're just normal dudes. Which is why the climax isn't Superman beating them, it's demonstrating to the world why you don't want a figure as powerful as Superman to get it in his head that he can do whatever the fuck he wants.
 
I mean, I've never seen Superman as anywhere close to the same level as Batman on the 'No Kill Rule'. He doesn't like killing, and he'll look for a workaround if he can find it, but he's more than willing to go 'Sit down before I put you down.' if the situation calls for it. It's simply that, for a being as powerful as him and who ahs witnessed all the comic book bullshit, he knows that there's rarely a situation that doesn't have a workaround. Though, I feel like the 'No Kill' rule has always more been a 'Don't be a sadistic executioner' rule.

Like, his problem with the Elite wasn't just that they killed villains, it's that they did as a first resort, had no care for any of the knock on effects of their actions, and were mostly power hungry jackasses who cared more about having an excuse to abuse their powers than building a better tomorrow. The core problem of the story is that the Elite's philosophy basically boils down to 'We have the power, so we get to decide everyone's fate' and treats being at all responsible or held accountable for the power you wield is a childish dream of an outdate super hero. He wouldn't fault a police officer for killing in self-defence, because they're just normal dudes. Which is why the climax isn't Superman beating them, it's demonstrating to the world why you don't want a figure as powerful as Superman to get it in his head that he can do whatever the fuck he wants.
Superman shouldn't have a "No Kill" rule. He should have a "No Kill" desire. Batman has such a rule because he doesn't trust himself to not fall to a slippery slop. Superman IS trustworthy. That is half his shtick. The Elite were authoritarians who liked power and the ability to kill. "Fun to kill." That is what Superman was fighting against. He showed everyone that when a truly powerful being adopts that ideology, there is a fear state. Imagine being at Metropolis when Superman is having that look in his eyes (you can't tell me the man never had acting classes). Many would have nightmares from that day.
 
Why does Superman get a pass for murdering a depowered Zod in Superman 2?
Because it's an old ass movie filmed in like 1978.
If it came out today, people would rip it to shreds for tons of things such as Superman pulling out this weird ability out of his ass:
TXXYx3.gif
Because people didn't use to be faggots with made-up "no kill" rules for their funny books.
I hate that but I completely understand it from a cynical moneymaking perspective.
If you kill all your popular villains, you will have to create new ones and you will probably not be able to replace the dead ones that people like.
 
hate that but I completely understand it from a cynical moneymaking perspective.
If you kill all your popular villains, you will have to create new ones and you will probably not be able to replace the dead ones that people like.
But you can justify it from a lore standpoint too. "The police looks the other way as long as we avoid killing. We can get away with breaking the laws on vigilantism that way."
 
Why does Superman get a pass for murdering a depowered Zod in Superman 2?
Old movie and Superman not being in the public consciousness enough for people to care.

As @Quarterback Rex Grossman pointed out, no one cared for Keatonman killing. I honestly don’t believe anyone cared about Batman killing till BTAS and Nolan became the primary sources for most people. They hammered in the rule and since the general public views them as their Batman, it is hard to break away.

By contrast, no one cares about Superman. Sadly, STAS gets sidelined because of the shows surrounding it (sad as it is more consistently good), and none of the films left the same impact as Batman. At best, Superman is characterized by his crossover appearances like LEGO Batman, which is why Injustice did so much damage to him. At the very least, he is better than Wonder Woman who is horridly mischaracterized as a cold-blooded killer thanks to Injustice and terrible comics having panels posted around - that infamous, there is a reason I have no villains being a big example.


He should have a "No Kill" desire.
Keep the JLU characterization where the man gives zero fucks if it is Darkseid and maybe Luthor. I think Supes being ready and willing to stomp Darkseid’s ass into the pavement upon just seeing him makes a lot of sense.

Generally, the more angry Clark of that universe is probably the best way of going about it. He clearly still values second chances, but he also has a much more defined boiling point where he will take drastic action compared to the rest of the League. Makes sense the guy with the weight of the world on his shoulders is a little more willing to “do the needful” and remove potential escalations compared to his colleagues.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a purist or similar.

But for me personally it has always been hard to see Batman's no kill as a real moral standard instead of cynycal attempt by writers to justify why his very profitable villains are still around.

Was even more ridiculous with Batfleck. You have to wonder that if his Batman is willing to kill then why is his Joker still alive?
In general, superheroes are children’s characters and made to uphold ideals. The idea of second chances and pushes to make people better are noble and of real value. BTAS is well loved because they show the complexity of evil and that not all people who do bad things are necessarily just in it to hurt others or that there may be fundamental issues in society that can create a monster.

I think a large problem is the adult works now go overboard with how ridiculously evil characters are to the point where the message of redemption is hard to swallow. Injustice wanting me to believe Superman took a step too far in killing Jonkler after he nuked a city is utter insanity. Lex having a little tard smack down with Superman should not be put on the same tier as Darkseid ass raping a planet and killing untold billions, yet comics want to treat both crimes with the same resolution.

The DCAU worked because villains never got too out-of-hand outside of rare circumstances, and of course, when those circumstances happen, we get Jonkler getting shot in the heart, Lex getting a laser through the head, or Superman just curb stomping Dankseid with no mercy. It was way more realistic in how these things should be handled.
 
Superman taking bad guys into the Sun is the coolest fucking thing ever.

“Nooooooo, this cool thing is bad, um actually.”

Superman unleashing the full kit against Brainiac,, Doomsday, Henshaw, Darkseid, Mongul and Zod is based and fighting to kill these guys makes him more noble not less. He may not like killing, but he’s gonna stomach it because they’re insane genocidal monsters, most of which have billions of lives under their belt and if he fails or holds back, his loved ones are next in their crosshairs.

I mean, I've never seen Superman as anywhere close to the same level as Batman on the 'No Kill Rule'. He doesn't like killing, and he'll look for a workaround if he can find it, but he's more than willing to go 'Sit down before I put you down.' if the situation calls for it. It's simply that, for a being as powerful as him and who ahs witnessed all the comic book bullshit, he knows that there's rarely a situation that doesn't have a workaround. Though, I feel like the 'No Kill' rule has always more been a 'Don't be a sadistic executioner' rule.

Like, his problem with the Elite wasn't just that they killed villains, it's that they did as a first resort, had no care for any of the knock on effects of their actions, and were mostly power hungry jackasses who cared more about having an excuse to abuse their powers than building a better tomorrow. The core problem of the story is that the Elite's philosophy basically boils down to 'We have the power, so we get to decide everyone's fate' and treats being at all responsible or held accountable for the power you wield is a childish dream of an outdate super hero. He wouldn't fault a police officer for killing in self-defence, because they're just normal dudes. Which is why the climax isn't Superman beating them, it's demonstrating to the world why you don't want a figure as powerful as Superman to get it in his head that he can do whatever the fuck he wants.

You gave me more to ponder on. I can admit when I am wrong. And I got this one wrong.

I do concede maybe I took my image on him from the outliers versions that were more idealistic. Superman vs the elite really hammered down he doesn't kill for example . But like @Basic Blond Boy said even in the DCAU he expressed desire to kill Darkseid in a fight. And that's one of the most iconic versions.

I still feel like there is a fine line, and a reason Henry Cavill felt like he needed to justify his Superman not wanting to kill ever again. There's a reason him killing Joker and Luthor were the origins of his evil alternate selves.

I think @Incecticyder put it perfectly. It's a lack of a desire to kill or of considering killing as a first option , which ultimately sets him apart from Batman and makes makes more sense for him than a no kill rule.
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
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