Las Vegas Mass Shooting - 50 Dead, 200 Injured. Worst Mass Shooting in US History

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Just heard from my friend, everything's okay. And I was right, the ringer was off, as people were calling constantly and it was a matter of responding to everyone when the time was right. A message on Facebook and an e-mail for those who don't have FB is easier than tending to a hundred phone calls.

It's true what they say: you can watch disasters on the news for years, but it's when it affects you or someone you love that you really feel it. Nothing wrong with that, it's just human nature. It does give you more empathy when you hear of other disasters in the future, though.
 
Remember that time the ATF watched cartels illegally obtain shitloads of guns and then forgot the part where they were supposed to track and arrest the buyers and distributors? Good times.

Speaking of which, the tinfoil-encrusted corners of the internet are now speculating that Steve was an arms dealer based on his plane that was repeatedly registered but never filed flight plans, his numerous trips overseas for "business", being a millionaire despite a spotty employment record, the fact that gambling is sometimes used to launder money, and that he had an arsenal of weapons in his hotel so large that he could never conceivably use them all--as opposed to a couple of reliable guns and a lot of ammo.

Pretty out there, but a lot of the stuff about Steve's life is fucking weird.


Maybe not an arms dealer but perhaps involved with shady people (perhaps through his literal whore wife), as gamblers often are. Steve seemed like a very fly-by-night person who wouldn't have too many qualms with "legitimate businessmen", especially if he needed cash. The casinos have been largely sanitized but Vegas itself still has a lot of organized crime; he made his millions on real estate and property investments, which are common ways to launder dirty money. Vegas also has a lot of powerful Filipinos, so him or his gf owing money to a flip wouldn't be too far fetched.

The Phillipines are a pretty scary place too (they elected Duterte for a reason); tons of meth and illegal guns go through there to the western US, including Vegas. Organized crime over there is not to be fucked with. Getting in trouble with them could lead a man to some very desperate things.

The most likely theory to me is that he became psycho like his dad later in life and just snapped one day, but if we're talking tinfoil I find something along these lines pretty compelling.
 
Apparently it’s a bad thing to let the LVPD have a compliment.

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No other business requires you to keep sales receipts for every sale you ever made, including the name and personal information for every customer for the eternity of your business and a federal agency can come and inspect every sales receipt from every transaction you've ever made, "just to make sure" you're following the law correctly.
state department approved exports, certain types of tax filing documents related to manufacturing (cars being a notable example), import records for certain components of engines or other traceable parts, fuel and oil sales over a certain quantity, production records dealing with BOL and sales for building materials like steel, coke/coal, finished materials like insulation or roofing tiles. did you know that a manufacturer has to maintain records for heavy machinery installed by millwrights like generators or hydraulic presses? how about boilers or heaters, which are regulated by most states to maintain records on sales to commercial properties?

a lot of these are meant for tractability. the 4473 is effectively a sales receipt - i have no paperwork prior to a firearm entering my control, and after it leaves my control i don't update it anymore.

IRS maintains 15 year records for most people - do you think that's a registry too? papers of incorporation, certificates of insurance, et c are maintained for the lifetime of a company as well.

They can come and look at all of your 4473s at any (scheduled) time.
yes, and if they have no court order, i can tell them to pound sand. why is this such a hard concept?

It is an attempt at registry, they just require FFL dealers to hold onto the records instead, and when the FFL goes out of business, the records get turned over to the ATF, who does God-knows what with them.
when the an FFL goes out of business, the records are sent to the ATF and they are stored at their enforcement offices indefinitely.

You really don't think the 4473s are an attempt at a registry?
no i don't. not any more than attempting to trace the sale of a car from manufacturer to the current owner by only looking at sales receipts is a registry. the 4473 contains point-in-time information on when a gun was sold, as legislatively required. a registry generally requires up to date information, centrally located for indexed searches, in order to assembly a complete (hopefully) history of an item. the 4473 does not do this. it isn't maintained centrally, it isn't collated and each 4473 for every time the gun is transferred must be collected. further, only a portion of the 4473 is given to the FBI in order to run the NICS check. the ATF has no say or insight into when a firearm is transferred or when a 4473 is filled out. it stays completely local. the eForm 4473 is a different beast, and one that i do not use, so i can't comment on it.

Can you show me some news sources of ATF agents being fired over not destroying records they were legally obligated to destroy? I didn't find any.
not that specifically, it's more general misconduct, or they are transferred to purely administrative tasks. the agents that raided Apex Arms for example have been sidelined. the agents that did the Fast and Furious operation are still employed, just suspended et c. back in 1999 Eric Larson testified before a Congressional Inquiry panel about ATF's record keeping and far from being some attempt at a registry, it was full of errors and holes - largely useless.
 
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No other business requires you to keep sales receipts for every sale you ever made, including the name and personal information for every customer for the eternity of your business and a federal agency can come and inspect every sales receipt from every transaction you've ever made, "just to make sure" you're following the law correctly.

Dual purpose products deal with this all the time. For example, you or I could not export a PS3 to Iran from the US without running afoul of Import/Export compliance with the US, . This also carries over into intellectual property potentially. I want to say this is government by US department of Commerce, but do not quote me on that.

So say for example I sell a variable frequency drive to shell company in India and then this company immediately sell it to North Korea to run centrifuges, I would face severe punishment for failure to monitor and control access to my equipment. I would be required to maintain access and records to the appropriate authorities and failure to do so would mean immediate loss of import/export licensing, significant fines, and potentially imprisonment.
 
Apparently it’s a bad thing to let the LVPD have a compliment.

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Uh oh DRUMPF gave the LVPD a compliment? BETTER SHIT ALL OVER THEM!

Trevor Knownothing demonstrates he's completely lost the plot when he ignores the fact that the act of the police approaching his room and busting in is EXACTLY what caused the shooter to An Hero (thus stopping the shooting).

Exactly. Had the police not shown up or shown up any later the death toll would have been much higher. Do people honestly think the police magically teleport to the location of a crime the second 911 is dialed?
 
no i don't. not any more than attempting to trace the sale of a car from manufacturer to the current owner by only looking at sales receipts is a registry. the 4473 contains point-in-time information on when a gun was sold, as legislatively required. a registry generally requires up to date information, centrally located for indexed searches, in order to assembly a complete (hopefully) history of an item. the 4473 does not do this. it isn't maintained centrally, it isn't collated and each 4473 for every time the gun is transferred must be collected. further, only a portion of the 4473 is given to the FBI in order to run the NICS check.

In the somewhat recent Abramski v. United States Supreme Court case, where they affirmed that straw purchases are illegal (i.e. you can't buy a gun for someone else from a federal dealer), I remember reading a Court opinion that the purpose of the 4473 system was to track guns through the transfer forms. I remember that it said something along the lines of, the Congress' intent of the law was to keep a paper record of who has bought a specific firearm:

Federal gun law establishes an elaborate system of in-person identification and background checks to ensure that guns are kept out of the hands of felons and other prohibited purchasers. §§922(c), 922(t). It also im-poses record-keeping requirements to assist law enforcement authorities in investigating serious crimes through the tracing of guns to their buyers.

The system still, in my opinion, is a method for the government to be able to trace who owns which gun, despite its flaws. This function is even argued in the Supreme Court.

Apparently, the system isn't used only to trace guns to their buyers in the investigation of serious crimes, but it's also used to punish people who sell guns to people who are selling guns not to keep them "out of the hands of felons and prohibited purchasers" but to keep a detailed database of who bought which gun.

It's obvious when they punish someone for selling a gun to someone legally able to purchase and own firearms, while invoking this law. The law is designed to track firearms and their owners, not simply to punish people who let guns fall into the hands of prohibited individuals.

Anyway, it was nice learning about the FFL system directly from an FFL dealer.
not that specifically, it's more general misconduct, or they are transferred to purely administrative tasks. the agents that raided Apex Arms for example have been sidelined.

Oh nice, I remember that. They were selling 80% lowers that were suspected of being 100% lowers, with a different color polymer being used to fill in the holes and convert a 100% lower (a manufactured firearm) into an 80% lower (a hunk of plastic) again, correct?

Can you tell me what happened with Apex Arms after the incident?
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
In the somewhat recent Abramski v. United States Supreme Court case, where they affirmed that straw purchases are illegal (i.e. you can't buy a gun for someone else from a federal dealer), I remember reading a Court opinion that the purpose of the 4473 system was to track guns through the transfer forms.
it is a point-in-time form used to submit information for compliance with the NICS system performed by the FBI and mandated by law. it can be used to track down the origin, transfers, and eventually the last known transfer of a specific firearm, however it is largely useless as registration:

1. you must individually locate each FFL the firearm passed through
2. you must categorically determine the disposition of the firearm if it differs from the paperwok, as the papers are filled out by hand traditionally and some people are inconsistent with details. is an anodized aluminum receiver "black" finish, "blued" finish, "cerakote black", "epoxy finish black paint over park" and others that provide a significant amount of wiggle room.
3. the FBI isn't passed any information on the firearm itself, they receive information about the buyer from the seller.
4. the ATF receives no information at all unless it's a Title II (NFA) controlled item, or if the buyer falls into a specific category, like multiple handguns in a single transaction.
5. the ATF may request a copy of the 4473. the FFL is under no obligation to provide it except with a court ordering the FFL to do so.

Anyway, it was nice learning about the FFL system directly from an FFL dealer.
many people on both sides of the gun control issue rarely understand how the laws actually work. often i encounter just as many "the ATF will shoot your dog and confiscate your boot laces" as i do "guns are haunted by evil spirits and murder innocent babies".

Oh nice, I remember that. They were selling 80% lowers that were suspected of being 100% lowers, with a different color polymer being used to fill in the holes and convert a 100% lower (a manufactured firearm) into an 80% lower (a hunk of plastic) again, correct?

Can you tell me what happened with Apex Arms after the incident?
Apex had the case dismissed as the ATF refused to elaborate on how they arrived at a reasonable conclusion of the manufacturing of 100% lowers because Apex directly submitted their entire manufacturing process to scrutiny. the ATF, in order to not bind themselves into a corner by getting involved in the methods used to make an 80% lower (namely they would open themselves to defining what an 80% is which they haven't done) dropped the case in exchange for Apex keeping their license and using a slightly different manufacturing method. Apex separated their lower manufacturing business into it's own thing, called "Polymer80".
 
Felons can't buy guns.

Here is something that is like white guilt, but for gun owners I guess.
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The gun he "paid a lot of money for?"

A Ruger 10/22, a .22 caliber semiautomatic rifle. It can be bought at Walmart for around $200-250.

At the very least I'm glad he isn't advocating the government to go and steal people's guns, he's simply urging people to give them up.

Good luck with that.
 
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