Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[scallion]

ngl Mew Mew was the easiest boss yet, including story bosses not just the shard holders

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

The Knight had his hardest attack nerfed

"nerfed"

The word is "fixed". The hallway of swords' hitbox extended outside the actual sprites lmao. Shit was borderline impossible.

 

[Cryogonal2]

Its just occurred to me I've fucked my save somewhere because Jackenstein is fucking dead and I'm gonna have to replay chapter 4 and 5

Just edit your completion save using Tenna Editor.

Anyway, I've thought more about the twisted sword. In order to craft it, you need both the thorn ring and the "pure crystal," which we can only assume will be the item Seam gives us if you give him all five shadow crystals. Given that the shadow crystals contain the power of "lost dreams," perhaps the pure crystal is the inversion of that, meaning it contains the power to pursue a new dream. The thorn ring is an item that allows you to become more in touch with your inner desires, even the ugly ones you never wanted to accept. I don't think it's a tool that lets you control people, because you can't stop Noelle from dragging you into the lake in the Weird Route no matter how hard you command her to stop. The twisted sword doesn't kill enemies, and contains the "slay dark" ability from the black shard without listing it. Going off of stats, it's just a reskin of the black shard. Also, only Kris can use it. Everything is pointing towards its "trance" ability having a purpose, like it did for Noelle. Considering that the thorn ring's trance made Noelle more susceptible to giving in to her hidden desires, it's possible that the twisted sword doesn't necessarily bring out the worst in Kris, but instead focuses his desires toward finding a way out for everyone where nobody needs to get hurt. Of course, that's if we're considering the idea that Kris is working to sacrifice himself in service of protecting his hometown and fulfill the final act of the prophecy. Or, if we're considering the idea that the prophecy has already happened "The Girl" being Dess and all this Roaring Knight shit is an attempt to undo the end of the prophecy where The Girl gets banished to the Gaster Zone but that's even more baseless speculation, it'll allow Kris to find a new way to subvert the end and bring his friend back.

 

[CertifiedFedBot]

Disgusting troonspeak

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

theorycrafting the prophecy is literal gambling given that the prophecy is a nothing burger as of now
Known facts about it:
1. There are 3 heroes (vessel + girl monster + prince) and a girl.
2. Dark foutains are not good
3. One thing has to be done to save the world, it pisses Susie off and Ralsei prays for her.
4. Ralsei gatekeeps us from knowing about it.
If Toby is a hack, the prophecy says some "the girl must sacrifice herself" and then Susie and Noelle will have to choose which one has to be the sacrifice, but we have so little to work with anything is possible here

(Stolen from reddit)

 

[Noto Bok]

theorycrafting the prophecy is literal gambling given that the prophecy is a nothing burger as of now
Known facts about it:
1. There are 3 heroes (vessel + girl monster + prince) and a girl.
2. Dark foutains are not good
3. One thing has to be done to save the world, it pisses Susie off and Ralsei prays for her.
4. Ralsei gatekeeps us from knowing about it.
If Toby is a hack, the prophecy says some "the girl must sacrifice herself" and then Susie and Noelle will have to choose which one has to be the sacrifice, but we have so little to work with anything is possible here

To me it honestly feels like it must be something regarding the fountains, or Castletown.
Something Susie has a personal stake in, which to me seems to be Castletown or her hero persona. I say that because it seems to be the only good thing in her life, considering she's willing to give up her actual home to live in Castletown.
The panel also must have been very clear in what it meant. So the dense lizard that she is could understand it, and could have that particular reaction.

I mean, what else could have motivated her to break the panel? To have such a visceral and immediate reaction?

 

[Starman John]

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Anyway, I've thought more about the twisted sword. In order to craft it, you need both the thorn ring and the "pure crystal," which we can only assume will be the item Seam gives us if you give him all five shadow crystals. Given that the shadow crystals contain the power of "lost dreams," perhaps the pure crystal is the inversion of that, meaning it contains the power to pursue a new dream.

I think the pure crystal may be more of a concentration than an inversion. You, the player, are taking peoples lost dreams and literally forging them into a fulfilled one. Yours.

Kris has no reason, as far as we know, to want the shadow crystals or give them to Seam, once the fountains are sealed the crystals may as well not even exist, and if the roaring happens then they really don't matter. They don't come up anywhere else and they serve no purpose in the light world nor the other dark worlds.

Kris especially has zero reason to start then stop the WR to get the ring.

In fact there's no reason for Kris to seek out the secret bosses at all. The only reason we get the crystals is because WE want them. Trying to find them and eventually create the sword that's been teasing us since Ch1 is the player exercising their will over the narrative as an outside force, but in a constructive and non-mind rapey way.

We're perusing our dream and desires within the confines of the game's rules and without actually hurting anyone.

 

[Moral Decay]

No one normal says "cis" but otherwise this is perfect

Disgusting troonspeak

Yeah that one was from the Deltarune subreddit, whose banner is still colored like the trans flag. It still amused me, even if they had to deliver it in a safe-edgy, "gender-affirming" way. The landfaggots jannies would take offense otherwise.

 

[Cryogonal2]

Kris has no reason, as far as we know, to want the shadow crystals or give them to Seam, once the fountains are sealed the crystals may as well not even exist, and if the roaring happens then they really don't matter. They don't come up anywhere else and they serve no purpose in the light world nor the other dark worlds.

Kris especially has zero reason to start then stop the WR to get the ring.

ERAM implies that Kris is searching for them, but we can wave that away as ERAM not knowing that it's us searching for them. Kris already seems to have a lot of knowledge about how things are going to play out, maybe because of Ralsei or maybe he's done all this shit before. So, you've got a good point. We just don't know. The only reason to start and stop WR is to get the thorn ring, which Kris and Ralsei really aren't fond of. Maybe because it breaks the illusion that the dark world was a dream for Noelle in Kris's case, or maybe because it means you had to irreversibly damage some darkners just to get it in Ralsei's case. Just kidding, Ralsei couldn't give less of a shit about the life of a darkner. He's just a knower. Anyway, I think you've got a good point in that the only person who would really understand the implications of the twisted sword, would be the player.

In fact there's no reason for Kris to seek out the secret bosses at all. The only reason we get the crystals is because WE want them. Trying to find them and eventually create the sword that's been teasing us since Ch1 is the player exercising their will over the narrative as an outside force, but in a constructive and non-mind rapey way.

That depends on if Kris was always aware of the shadow crystals or not. If he wasn't, then yes, you are right there is no reason whatsoever. If he was, then the reason was always for the sake of having Seam craft the pure crystal and might even imply he's aware of the twisted sword. You know, I just realized Asgore had a shadow crystal in the Holiday mansion, and the next chapter may take place there...I swear, if Seam gives us some "hold on a moment I need ONE MORE THING and then next chapter you're good to go" shit I'll be pissed off

We're perusing our dream and desires within the confines of the game's rules and without actually hurting anyone.

Well, except for those darkners in the cyber world.

Unrelated, I thought about a dark world opening up in a used electronics store with like fifty Tennas running around.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

Just kidding, Ralsei couldn't give less of a shit about the life of a darkner.

It's generally not meaningful to prescribe motives to the soul/player since thats just us, and we could have any reasons to do anything (mainly out of curiosity), but I think it is true that we would only do the start/stop WR for the thorn ring to get the twisted sword, so it would make sense for the story to acknowledge that.

The shadow crystal stuff depends on if it'll show up anyway or if we need the secret bosses to access them. It doesn't seem like Kris is trying to push us to get them, however the knight clearly has some access to them, so it's possible that if Kris has a particular need for them he'll be able to use it anyway. Would make sense with the "choices don't matter" thing

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Well, except for those darkners in the cyber world.

I said anyone, not anything.

Also we don't really know for certain if Noelle's non-SG freeze attacks are even lethal. Snowgrave itself explicitly states that it's lethal and even has grave in the name, so the normal ass iceshock also being deadly would make that kind of silly.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

Noelle's non-SG freeze attacks are even lethal.

To Lightners, Darkners, or in general? It seems like it'd kind of defeat the point of all the XP farming if the Darkners could just be thawed out

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

To Lightners, Darkners, or in general? It seems like it'd kind of defeat the point of all the XP farming if the Darkners could just be thawed out

Ngl I always saw it more as desensitizing Noelle to a little bit of violence rather than going on an actual killing spree. Noelle's strength comes from breaking down her barriers and making her let go and give in to your will, rather than actually building up strength via XP.

If slashing a darkener across the chest with a fucking ax isn't lethal then I don't see why just freezing them would be, they don't operate by lightener rules anyway. Snowgrave seems to transcend the barrier between light and dark and actually fuck shit up IRL, which iceshock doesn't.

If you beat Berdly with Iceshock it counts as an aborted route and he's fine.

 

[TyrasGuard]

Ralsei gatekeeps us from knowing about it.
If Toby is a hack, the prophecy says some "the girl must sacrifice herself" and then Susie and Noelle will have to choose which on has to be the sacrifice, but we have so little to work with anything is possible here

It's probably a sacrifice in the sense that they need Kris, the vessel or the Soul to kill the rest of the gang (and it may include dark worlders too) in order to gain the LVL needed to stop the Roaring.

I base this in the fact that the only way you can kill people in this game (so far) is to get Noelle to do it, and she gets more powerful when she does so. It's such a weird design choice that makes no sense to me, why can't Kris do it exactly?

There seems to be an active effort from the game to stop the Soul from going full Chara on the town. Characters will fight your choices and leave you in the dark about things, even Kris will.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Yeah I don't know why we're talking about the fucking Cyberworld enemies being frozen like it's some sort of big deal they're literally fuckin computer programs in the light world. Just reboot them or some shit.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Yeah I don't know why we're talking about the fucking Cyberworld enemies being frozen like it's some sort of big deal they're literally fuckin computer programs in the light world. Just reboot them or some shit.

>They're just frozen computer programs

Wow I'm retarded I never realized this lmao, yeah just restart the computer

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

Yeah I don't know why we're talking about the fucking Cyberworld enemies being frozen like it's some sort of big deal they're literally fuckin computer programs in the light world. Just reboot them or some shit.

So in WR you basically
>Freeze a bunch of computer programs
>Put Berdly into a coma
>Turn Noelle into a strong and independant BPD chud who rapes you
where is the downside, exactly? Shaping up to be the most morally virtuous root yet. We're going to heaven for doing this route.

 

[Cryogonal2]

I'm also thinking about the eggs and all the "inbetween" shit the game keeps throwing at you relating to it. Chapters 1-5 are the chapters where eggs and shadow crystals are gained. Chapter 3 is the only time the effort to get an egg and shadow crystal is different than usual. Instead of having to walk back and forth between two screens or the two gates in order to go "inbetween" the rooms, you have to do a puzzle that isn't hinted at in the slightest, then you have to get caught in a specific stealth section, ask to go nowhere, and speak to a chapter 4 enemy in the game until you find the ticket in your pants. THEN you have to walk out of a specific fight. That gets you to the egg room. Then you have the fight with the Knight that you have to win for the shadow crystal. It's a forced encounter, you don't need to do anything special to fight it. The shadow mantle isn't even required to win, it just makes the fight easier. Why the sudden skill check in the chapter that's inbetween the other chapters that have an egg and crystal?

So in WR you basically
>Freeze a bunch of computer programs
>Put Berdly into a coma
>Turn Noelle into a strong and independant BPD chud who rapes you
where is the downside, exactly? Shaping up to be the most morally virtuous root yet. We're going to heaven for doing this route.

You already said it. The Chosen One has to be damaged.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

Why the sudden skill check in the chapter that's inbetween the other chapters that have an egg and crystal?

The whole sequence of events for the eggs is definitely something done to ensure that everyone going after the eggs is doing so very intentionally, but yeah like you said it's very strange how it changes the trend of eggs. If the egg thing is meant to be exclusionary, why only in chapter 3?

The knight thing is weird too but I'm not sure if thats intentionally weird or just circumstantial. Like the knight is a required encounter, and Gerson in chapter 4 is probably the easiest secret boss to encounter and also necessary for the story to work, so is there some thematic tie there too or not really? What about Mew Mew being out of nowhere? is there some hidden meaning or something that ties it all together, or is it just the natural variation in the secret bosses?

You already said it. The Chosen One has to be damaged.

Berdly is not the chosen one, he is something much greater


Noelle is the chosen one. The rapist and the rapee in one. Only she can save the West (with the aid of Berdly)