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Ironically the Confederates were Democrats and Lincoln was Republican. That is why I hate the Confederates. Nothing else.
Based. Nothing wrong with seeing things in a simple way.

James Atlas has published two videos. One is a suggestion that supposed super rich Mansa Musa was a fraud based on few and dubious sources plus latterday White guilt. Mansa Musa might've have a quantity of gold with him, not gold mined but alluvial gold, which he ran out of and had to borrow. He suggests the claim he crashed Egypt's gold market is dubious. Traditional Malian singers actually scorned him as a showy fool who gathered gold in other impress others in his showy Hajj pilgrimage. The second is a reconsideration of the Belgian Congo atrocities reports of Sir Roger Casement and others. Likely the Adam Hotschild book will feature as that's the modern iteration of the claims. I haven't watched the second one yet. Anyhow I heard this second claim from the The Rest is History Podcast of Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook. They covered the claims made in a US history magazine in an episode, but IIRC considered them of note of note, but not really proven.

 
And yes, I do get your point, but do we know that the self determination that you speak of was in context of the southern population and not its slave owner aristocracy?
Do we know that any independence movement was in the context of its larger population and not the elites that were leading it? This is a tautological rhetoric question and it easily falls apart under basic scrutiny, right down to the basic human impulse to be tribal and prefer your own ingroup.
How many state governments were completely dominated by secessionists and weren't a mix of radical and moderate democrats?
Well we actually have a good number; more slave states stayed within the Union initially rather than seceded. This included Virginia, which had the most slaves out of any state in the Union at the time; the slave owner aristocracy was, themselves, deeply divided on the question of whether to go through with secession and the Confederacy ironically wound up having its most famous characters mostly be people who were initially against it. What pushed the majority of states into secession was Lincoln calling up the militia, thinking that it was just an elite revolt that was unpopular with the majority population, and then finding out the hard way that the majority of the southern population was willing to fight for their independence.
No state will ever guarantee its subjects a legal way of becoming independent, no matter what their founding fathers or the constitution says.
Well we had a tenth amendment for that, which is why a very large portion of the American public was naive enough to believe there actually was a legal way to independence, on multiple occasions, on both sides of Mason-Dixon. Is that not how power works? Sure, turns out Enlightenment ideals aren't actually stronger than human nature. It's still tragic and lamentable.
 
The second is a reconsideration of the Belgian Congo atrocities reports of Sir Roger Casement and others.
Pre-viewing thoughts:

The atrocities in the Congo strange because you can easily imagine yourself as a perpetrator who signed up for a job and got in too deep.

Imagine you are in the Congo Free State. You are overseeing a bunch of arab mercenaries along with some locally recruited militias. The Arabs see the black workers as pagan kaffirs and kill them without hesitation. The local militias are literally cannibals and you recently saw them eating their enemies after a fight with some invading arabs. You want to be as far away from these fighters as possible. You are tasked with an obscenely high rubber quota because the Congo Free State is perpetually bordering on bankruptcy from not having an income stream for its first 5 years. Your boss is some king or something that likes gambling and all of your co-workers are degenerate rapists who take low pay to be somewhere they can do whatever they want. There is no greater cause here. Its also always 40 Celsius and there are mosquitos everywhere and you have become an alcoholic who sees life as cheap.

Under those circumstances you can easily see yourself becoming an evil person who just says "who cares, it works" until your contract is up.

The most plausible Congo Free State defense I have seen is that the descriptions (not records) of depopulation are from people fleeing the Arab slaver dominated areas for the Belgian areas and that the atrocities committed by the Force Publique happened because they used local soldiers who applied local traditions and customs for compelling labor. However, Leopold still comes out of that looking bad. Its also not that too far off from the "official narrative".

Post viewing thoughts:

Bit more "based" than I expected.

The Hochschild thing reminds me of people who got their understanding of of slavery from Roots or their climate change opinions from Al Gore. Where you are somewhat on their side about the thing being bad, but they are obviously grifting and sensationalizing. Hochschild definitely seems to have an anti-white agenda, but what he omits does not make the Congo Free State look any better. If anything, he is just editing to make white people in general look evil so that people don't realize that it was local fighters committing most of the obscene brutality.

Atlas seems quite annoyed that people are blaming Leopold for the atrocities of locals, but the Congo was his personal realm and he setup the system. It is not unreasonable to blame him. When you colonize a place you take the blame for what happens there. Its part of why you should not be colonizing places. Maybe all of the deaths from disease would have happened anyway and that was just normal, but you still get the blame for it if you own the place.
It is also strange how he acts as though these colonial abuses were unusual. Even in the 1930s there were extreme abuses in pursuit of rubber by colonies run by national governments.
One even sparked the biggest anti-colonial uprising in Africa. Ironically, this one is barely ever discussed or covered by anybody.

Their opinion on the hand cutting is strange. Imagine you are managing a KFC in the hood. Your staff are all morons, and do things in insane ways, but the job gets done. How much do you care? You are a white official in the Congo. Your local employees are doing things "schizophrenically" and unsustainably but the job is getting done. Even in the video its kinda made clear that this was not an official policy, but just a practice that got popular and normalized. Africans cutting off hands to prevent ammo waste sounds stupid, but its also the Congo.
 
Pre-viewing thoughts:

The atrocities in the Congo strange because you can easily imagine yourself as a perpetrator who signed up for a job and got in too deep.

Imagine you are in the Congo Free State. You are overseeing a bunch of arab mercenaries along with some locally recruited militias. The Arabs see the black workers as pagan kaffirs and kill them without hesitation. The local militias are literally cannibals and you recently saw them eating their enemies after a fight with some invading arabs. You want to be as far away from these fighters as possible. You are tasked with an obscenely high rubber quota because the Congo Free State is perpetually bordering on bankruptcy from not having an income stream for its first 5 years. Your boss is some king or something that likes gambling and all of your co-workers are degenerate rapists who take low pay to be somewhere they can do whatever they want. There is no greater cause here. Its also always 40 Celsius and there are mosquitos everywhere and you have become an alcoholic who sees life as cheap.

Under those circumstances you can easily see yourself becoming an evil person who just says "who cares, it works" until your contract is up.

The most plausible Congo Free State defense I have seen is that the descriptions (not records) of depopulation are from people fleeing the Arab slaver dominated areas for the Belgian areas and that the atrocities committed by the Force Publique happened because they used local soldiers who applied local traditions and customs for compelling labor. However, Leopold still comes out of that looking bad. Its also not that too far off from the "official narrative".
The Congo Free State appears to have made token efforts at schooling (per commitments made to the Conference of Berlin, I think), including allowing some missionaries and foreign officials, which was risky (and ultimately fatal to the CFS as Leopold's personal possession), but indeed the practical work was done a mix of ultra violent locals (the Force Publique), slave snatching Arab traders and Col. Kurtz type Europeans. Leopold wanted money to live like a god as King of a country he despised while raising lavish buildings in the capital Brussels alongside palaces and hunting lodges. Leopold liked women far young than him (like his most notorious mistress, Caroline Lacroix who he met when she was 16 and he 65, which to us is chomo stuff and even then wasn't well regarded) and a cash flow. Whatever made the cash flow happen was fine. There was a basic hypocrisy with the British harrumphing over this given extraordinary famines in its colonies from India to Ireland.

I looked at it and I then asked Mister Google to summarize:
Based on the video titled "The TRUTH About King Leopold II and the Congo", here are the main arguments and points presented by the creator: [1]

Critique of "King Leopold's Ghost"
  • Author Bias: The creator argues that Adam Hochschild, author of King Leopold's Ghost, writes from a lifelong place of far-left, ideological bias (4:51).
  • Manipulated Quotes: The video claims Hochschild actively uses ellipses to cut up historical quotes and distort their original meanings to make Belgian colonial rule look intentionally barbaric (12:33).
  • Lack of Context: The creator alleges that Hochschild removes critical context from Belgian officers' diaries, ignoring that recorded skirmishes were responses to attacks by local slavers and cannibals (14:07).

Debunking the 10 Million Death Toll
  • Fabricated Evidence: The video states that the widely cited figure of 10 million deaths comes from just three short paragraphs in Hochschild’s book, which relies on a fake quote and a speculative, throwaway remark from historian Jan Vansina (25:54).
  • Vansina's Actual Research: The creator points out that when Vansina later conducted formal population research in 2010, he openly repudiated maximalist claims of a massive population collapse (30:59).
  • Natural Fluctuations: The creator attributes high mortality rates during the era to pre-industrial tropical disease cycles and environmental factors rather than systematic murder (37:32).

Arguments Against Systematic Mutilation
  • Logistical Impossibility: The creator disputes the popular claim that African Force Publique soldiers routinely cut off hands to prove fatal use of ammunition (46:45). The video argues it is a logistical impossibility given the high numbers of missed rounds typical in jungle guerrilla warfare (1:04:56).
  • Indigenous Custom: The video claims that hand severing was an ancient warfare custom in the region long before Europeans arrived (48:39). It asserts thin Belgian forces lacked the manpower to completely eliminate the practice immediately (1:12:32).
  • Unreliable Testimonies: The creator argues that individual testimonies of playing dead while having limbs chopped off are physiologically impossible, suggesting victims may have actually lost limbs to animals or disease and were encouraged to blame the government (1:26:16).

The Real Intentions of the Congo Reform Movement
  • Commercial Motivations: The video alleges that the early 20th-century Congo Reform Movement was not an organic humanitarian crusade, but a targeted smear campaign orchestrated by British business elites (like merchant John Holt) to break up Belgian trade monopolies and secure personal profits (1:30:23).
  • Focus on Free Trade:
  • the creator emphasizes that original complaints by activists heavily focused on economic treaty violations regarding free trade rather than the human rights of indigenous groups (1:31:07).
Hochschild does have an anti-white agenda, but Leopold was a man of notable moral turpitude. The creator is too eager to project a profoundly considered agenda on campaigners. The do gooders had to focus on trade violations as that was the basis Leopold could turn Stanley's exploration into a personal estate, and how this could be reversed. British commercial acquisitiveness likely did lie behind a degree of support given to campaigners, but the British were likely already making far more than Leopold given the sheer scale and heft of the British merchant navy, manufacturers and City of London Stock Market in comparison to whatever Leopold and the Belgians (whose young nation later gained the colony after Leopold was handsomely paid for it). Ultimately do gooders want to do good (although their 'good' and actual 'good' can differ). Yet James Atlas does provide a fair few things to think about.

I'm not sure Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland's The Rest is History podcast has been mentioned too much. Perhaps it's too well known. A UK judge was caught watching one of their episodes instead of overseeing some boring court case. They've also some recent Beatles episodes involving Conan O'Brien and Paul McCartney. They've an extraordinary output of videos. I've read a few of Tom Holland's books. He focusses mainly on ancient history. They number their episodes in an awkward way. I'll see if I can share the consideration of the reconsideration of the Congo Free State.



Rest is History - Road to Marathon ep 1

I enjoyed this episode. Tom Holland is good at the impersonations.

RIH - How the 70s destroyed the British economy
 
Does anybody have an opinion on Hocschild's American Midnight in light of him being potentially a liar in King Leopold's Ghost? I became interested in it just because I had... basically come to the same interpretation as him, independently (you don't get an award for thinking an idea and not writing a book about it years after someone else thought the idea and wrote a book about it... this happened with Why Nations Fail by Acemoglu too... of course, who knows how much of this is me getting it secondhand from osmosis). But then I couldn't stomach even more than a few pages of it.

It's like Hochschild and I both looked at the era, saw the same modern day parallels but totally flipped as to who is the Wilson.
 
Do we know that any independence movement was in the context of its larger population and not the elites that were leading it? This is a tautological rhetoric question and it easily falls apart under basic scrutiny, right down to the basic human impulse to be tribal and prefer your own ingroup.
I don't really understand your point. If you mean an independence movement without an Elite, maybe the Baltic States in 91? If you mean one where both the Elite and the masses agree there are a lot of them. Most European ones are like that.
 
For some reason Youtube is very insistent that I watch everyone's favorite faggot whenever I watch something even remotely related.

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I don't really understand your point. If you mean an independence movement without an Elite, maybe the Baltic States in 91? If you mean one where both the Elite and the masses agree there are a lot of them. Most European ones are like that.
The latter. Virtually every independence movement involves and benefits elites, casting aspersions on the sincerity of a cause at large because elites might benefit from it is absurd. You could do that to the War of American Independence; many of the founders demonstrably had financial and political incentives in throwing off the British and the hated Proclamation Line and only a plurality of Americans were patriots. It only requires you to ignore (or cherry-pick) their own statements, the broader series of events and grievances leading up to Independence and assume the worse of everyone involved. It's not a healthy way of looking at history or past humans in general.
 
Do we know that any independence movement was in the context of its larger population and not the elites that were leading it? This is a tautological rhetoric question and it easily falls apart under basic scrutiny, right down to the basic human impulse to be tribal and prefer your own ingroup.
Yes, almost every soviet republic gained independence under the leadership of the middle class. 99% of the elite were compromised and quite content with the SU.
 
It's not a healthy way of looking at history or past humans in general.
This is generally how I try to look at things in history. When I was younger and would read about more inflammatory/controversial subjects dealing with wars, occupation, etc. it would annoy me why most historians approach scholarship by not making "value judgements" about what has happened in the past. But as I get older I can understand why, that's the general rule for not imposing opinion onto history. For one, I don't think it's the role of historians to have "hot takes" on what's happened. Ideally it should be presented as just the facts using whatever means necessary be it corroborating primary sources, archeological evidence if possible, whatever. I think in that regard it's unwise to come into a historical topic by presupposing certain modern ideas/ethics or to assume the people you're reading about are monsters and not simply humans acting in ways humans do with information they had at the time, values of the time, etc. And with humans being human they can be incredibly flawed and do horrible things, or they can achieve great things, or do very selfless and noble things, and anything else under the sun.
Luckily I'm not a historian so I can make all the value judgements I want, but I do still try to approach topics in history by not posthumously dehumanizing people I'm reading about.
 
Virtually every independence movement involves and benefits elites, casting aspersions on the sincerity of a cause at large because elites might benefit from it is absurd.
Julius Caesar, a patrician, pushed for land reform and resettling poor jobless Romans, ostensibly a benefit to those lower class, whom he was quite popular with. Yet he was killed by members of the senatorial class, while also having many allies there along with more supporters in every strata of society than any other Roman of his time. History is not about "class conflict" and not every seemingly beneficial movement is a part of a multi-generational scheme concocted by ill-defined "elites". This oversimplification of history into a battle of the "rich" and the "poor" is such a poison that affects so many across the political spectrum.


On an unrelated note, I hate when more right-leaning history tubers are doing a good job debunking the common progressive narrative on a topic, only to then delve immediately into their own politically-biased counternarrative with their own leaps of logic as they attempt to tie everything to Jews or Israel, much like modern progressive historians trying to tie everything to white supremacy or classism. It calls into question their credibility and only serves to limit their audience to groypers and other retards when they'd go much farther if they ditched the counternarrative aspect entirely.

Naming the Jew not even transgressive nor edgy because everyone else has been doing it with impunity on major platforms for the three fucking years, and the message always ends up being "Jews are supervillains responsible for everything, so I'm going to just smugly cross my arms while being enlightened by my own intelligence." It's total right-wing midwittery and I think it needs to be called out more.
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
Julius Caesar, a patrician, pushed for land reform and resettling poor jobless Romans, ostensibly a benefit to those lower class, whom he was quite popular with. Yet he was killed by members of the senatorial class.
To aid your point, he was killed by (a small cabal of) senators because he threatened their political power, not because of his economic reforms. They left virtually every reform he pushed through untouched after the Ides of March. This is probably because the Senate recognized that his economic reforms were both moderate and necessary. Not one of them could actually muster an opposition to any specific point of the land reform bill.
Naming the Jew not even transgressive nor edgy because everyone else has been doing it with impunity on major platforms for the three fucking years, and the message always ends up being "Jews are supervillains responsible for everything
3 years of Jew criticism being more tolerated does not mean it's not transgressive at all. Something being transgressive or not has no bearing on whether it's correct or not. Characterizing people who disagree with you as lunatics that think Jews have superpowers only makes you look childish and overly emotional.
 
I am not a lefty whatsoever but I am incredibly pro-Union, though in the sense of "Lincoln and Sherman put down a rebellion and ran it like Julius Caesar" and not "muh black people" like Atun-Shei.

This just reads as "might makes right." and a love for the winning side. I know you did a "here's how Lincoln was better" argument, but it doesn't connect at all to this statement which I believe is your true heart on the matter.

It's difficult to de-couple the pro-Union stance from a "might makes right" argument, precisely since the Thirteen Colonies did the exact same thing, but won. You also don't see pro-Confederate supporters champion Fort Pillow like Union supporters champion Sherman's march.

It reminds of a lot of stances people make where they basically go "Yes, liberals are right about this, but for the wrong reasons I assure you". Like supporting drag queen story hour, because one thinks it will show kids just how horrifying transvestites are. I can't help but be skeptical going into the moral validity of the civil war from a pro-Union perspective, and from what I've seen and heard, it's a tough position to defend.
 
Does anybody have an opinion on Hocschild's American Midnight in light of him being potentially a liar in King Leopold's Ghost? I became interested in it just because I had... basically come to the same interpretation as him, independently (you don't get an award for thinking an idea and not writing a book about it years after someone else thought the idea and wrote a book about it... this happened with Why Nations Fail by Acemoglu too... of course, who knows how much of this is me getting it secondhand from osmosis). But then I couldn't stomach even more than a few pages of it.

It's like Hochschild and I both looked at the era, saw the same modern day parallels but totally flipped as to who is the Wilson.
Never read it, but the essential claim of Wilson presiding over democratic backsliding, and the use of vigilantes and irregular forces seems not unreasonable. It honestly tracks with how a lot of ostensibly constitutional governments operated in that area with some using irregular measures, some becoming plain dictatorships and others remaining nominally democratic. It can be seen in everywhere from the UK to Romania. Now an historian who writes lots of reasonable books can find himself discredited by famous errors like Hugh Trevor-Roper / Lord Dacre over the 'Hitler Diaries'. Yet Hochchild is probably at worst using the evidence in a slanted way rather concocting it.

A former Belgian Foreign Minister Jean-Luc Vellut responded in the New York Review of Book to a critical Hochschid review of a Belgian exhibition and the historian answered him:

In response to:​

In the Heart of Darkness from the October 6, 2005 issue
To the Editors:

On the eve of the closing of the Tervuren exhibition “Memory of Congo: The Colonial Era,” Adam Hochschild published a long and passionate indictment of the whole project [“In the Heart of Darkness,” NYR, October 6, 2005]. His article does not bother to review most of the issues raised by an enterprise which was breaking original ground. The intention of the organizers was not to claim any moral supremacy, but rather to present a balanced view of seventy-five years of history. They selected, I believe, a fair choice of available photographs, films, objects, texts, and maps, though it should be kept in mind that, in many cases, the exhibition could do no better than making use of public relations photographs which are often the only ones that are available. The accompanying oral testimonies, shown on video, offered diverse perspectives. Throughout the exhibition Africans were presented as active participants and not merely as victims. At the end of the tour visitors were left free to draw their own conclusions. Hochschild believes that this approach betrays lack in moral commitment and yet the formula adopted by Tervuren introduced colonial history into the social consciousness of Belgium on a wide scale. It was appreciated by 140,000 visitors attracted to the exhibition. Furthermore the Congo government showed its welcome appreciation by inviting the show to come to Africa.

The New York Review accusation that the organizers distorted information concerning the demographers’ accepted views on human losses of the early colonial days deserves close scrutiny. The organizers of the exhibition pointed to a consensus of demographic historians on the great movements of population history in Central Africa, an area larger than the Congo properly speaking. Demographers agree that, overall, population losses are a fact of the early colonial period. With the benefit of hindsight, it might have been preferable for the exhibition to rest with that agreement and not to mention 20 percent as a possible population loss for the Congo of those years. Indeed, as a rule, population historians hesitate to commit themselves to any figure. An extenuating circumstance is that our 20 percent suggestion was in line with E.D. Morel’s own estimate (his preface to Mark Twain’s King Leopold’s Soliloquy, English edition, 1907).

I will rest in peace if this is the major mistake committed by the Tervuren exhibition. For more than two years, this enterprise had to work in the face of polemics where, partly thanks to Hochschild’s exertions, the concept of holocaust loomed large. Again The New York Review’s review compares the Tervuren Museum to a Jewish Museum in Berlin which would ignore the Holocaust. It later brings in the conquistadors of America. After cultivating much confusion, it is easy to blame the press or publishers for associating the Belgian Congo with genocide (see, e.g., Tokyo Yomiuri Shimbun, 14,400,000 press run: “Genocide: Belgium’s Monument to Denial,” by Adam Hochschild, March 15, 2005). It might have been fairer play to understand why the Tervuren exhibition had to confront such accusations.

Jean-Luc Vellut
Brussels, Belgium

Adam Hochschild replies:​

I’m glad that Professor Vellut now seems to say that, in the Royal Museum for Central Africa exhibit for which he was responsible, claiming a population loss of merely 20 percent for the early colonial period was a “major mistake.” Indeed it was.

If, however, as both Belgian officials at the time and various modern scholars have estimated, the loss may have been in the neighborhood of 50 percent, what do we call this? Does it not constitute reckless destruction of life? That phrase is from one of the definitions, in the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, for “holocaust,” with a small “h.” Long before the Nazis, the word came down to us from the ancient Greeks, and it is surely reasonable to apply it to the vast human toll taken in Central Africa.

Professor Vellut excuses other of the exhibit’s shortcomings by saying that “public relations photographs…are often the only ones that are available.” This is a puzzling assertion, given that the museum itself drew on an important alternative source, although in a manner so downplayed that a visitor could miss it. One thing which distinguished the Congo of a century ago from other bloody colonial conquests elsewhere was the presence of outside witnesses: several hundred British, American, and Swedish Protestant missionaries. Photographs of forced laborers, chained hostages, and atrocity victims, principally taken by Rev. William D. Armstrong and Alice Seeley Harris of Britain, appeared in slide shows and newspapers throughout the United States and Europe. Anyone can easily find many of these photos today, on-line at history Web sites such as www.boondocksnet.com/congo/congo_kodak.html or in numerous books, such as the 1999 Broadview Press edition of Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. Kevin Grant’s A Civilised Savagery: Britain and the New Slaveries in Africa, 1884–1926 (Routledge, 2005) contains an excellent scholarly treatment of this remarkable pictorial record and the people behind it.

What happened in the Congo—and the similar, tragically ignored bloodbath in surrounding Portuguese, French, and German colonies—was not genocide. Professor Vellut and I agree about this, and it’s a point I made clearly in both my New York Review piece and in an article reprinted from the Los Angeles Times on which, without my knowledge, the Yomiuri Shimbun apparently put a misleading headline. However, his letter does not respond to a principal criticism I had of the exhibit, namely that it displayed virtually nothing about a major cause of this high death toll, the colony’s pervasive, long-lasting forced labor system.

For a museum exhibit about colonialism almost anywhere in Africa to ignore this is to be like one of those elegant restored plantation houses in the American South where the tour guides avoid mentioning slavery. Great national museums have a higher mission: to recognize and explore, without evasions, all aspects of the past—glorious, shameful, and mundane, life as it was actually lived, not as we might wish it had been lived. The Royal Museum for Central Africa still has that task ahead of it.
original link / Ghostarchive

I suppose Hochschild does have a reasonable point that Vellut seemed a bit offhand about deaths. 20% is a large figure. Now the disagreement is whether the Congo Free State labor system was the cause of it. He points out too that there were a lot of photographs and reports of the time that would support his view that the means of rubber gathering by forced labor was at fault. Against that Vellut suggests the evidence can go different ways and the exhibition was about representing this and not just supporting an anti-colonial polemic. It's of interest.

This video by Kings and Things from 2024 (I've search the thread in case it was posted, it appears not) has a title evoking voices from a distant past, but it evokes too a time when technology was advancing. A notable character is 'Col' George Gouraud, a Union brevet Lt Colonel who promoted himself a rank (altho not to doubt the courage of a Medal of Honor winner) as well as promoting Edison's improving phonograph (wax cylinders replaced the original tinfoil) from his neo medieval London home of Little Menlo (name after Edison's first lab). His home in the 1880s had electric lighting that turned on when a person entered a room, a sort of vacuum cleaner and a phonograph connected to Crystal Palace allowing him to listen to concerts without leaving his home. A core of it is a dinner party where phonograph recordings of a barrister and toastmaster Broadley were used to give toasts and introduce the various people being recorded on the cylinders to Edison. There was a lot of fully charged or 'bumper' glasses so the speeches deteriorate as the evening went on, including Robert Browning forgetting his poem part way through. The incoming Prime Minister WE Gladstone was recorded too on his new phonograph, altho the quality was poor, but a rival managed to recorded Queen Victoria. The accents aren't too startling. Anyone who'd hear recording of upper class English people from the 1930s and 1940s won't be too shocked.


Kings and Things - YouTube
 
Yes, almost every soviet republic gained independence under the leadership of the middle class. 99% of the elite were compromised and quite content with the SU.
The Soviet Union was literally dissolved by its own elites. The ethnic states that regained their independence might have done so with the wide support of whatever passed for a middle class in those territories, but it happened with the assent and encouragement of local elites.
 
One aspect that fascinates me and may be granted by me not being a yank. Is that regardless of the goals, reasons and development of the American Civil War you can see the stillborn birth of an ethnicity happen. Had the South Won or Reconstruction happened differently and the distinction between Yankee and Dixie would be something real if quite shallow, like the difference between Czech and Slovak or Slovene and Croat. Yet because of how things went while Southerners did develop a distinct culture it never got to evolve into ethnicity and because the US is victim to external and internal migratory waves that culture has been eroded by both sublimation of it's cultural practices into the broader American culture or by replacement be it of population or simply of those cultural tenants by the broader culture.
 
The Soviet Union was literally dissolved by its own elites. The ethnic states that regained their independence might have done so with the wide support of whatever passed for a middle class in those territories, but it happened with the assent and encouragement of local elites.
The soviet union itself maybe, but the independence movements in various countries were headed by literal whos. I'll give you the example of Georgia since I can speak the most to it. 2 men were in charge of it, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, who was admittedly a son of of a famous novelist, and Merab Kostava an actual nobody, and realistically speaking the mind behind it. While nominal independence was gained in 91, the movement functionally took over the country in 1990 with the regional elections, eventually holding a referendum for independence.

Now obviously this was a sum of events accumulating over 70 years, but the question isn't do independence movements work, but rather who were behind them, and in terms of actual independence movements in the soviet union, Baltics, Georgia, and Armenia had nobodies leading them. With the elites still hanging on to the old system with their teeth, like for example the patriarch of Georgia writing letters in 1989-1990 to Gorbchev urging him to arrest dissident leaders - or the members of the Intelligentsia touring around the country and campaigning and asking people to NOT sign a petition against a death sentence to some students that tried to hijack a plane to escape to turkey. These Intelligentsia for example being people you might have even heard of like Nona Gaprindashvili, the woman upon whom the terrible troonslop "Queens Gambit" is based on. (She even sued netflix and they settled out of court)

The Elite Elites™ in moscow might have decided that the soviet experiment was over but they weren't behind the independence movements.
 
Yet because of how things went while Southerners did develop a distinct culture it never got to evolve into ethnicity and because the US is victim to external and internal migratory waves that culture has been eroded by both sublimation of it's cultural practices into the broader American culture or by replacement be it of population or simply of those cultural tenants by the broader culture.

I ran some numbers a few years back, and I think roughly 1/2 soldiers in the Northern Army were an immigrant, a son of an immigrant or Black. Meanwhile, foreigners and sons of foreigners only made up 15% of the Confederate army.

Ethnically speaking, your average Southern soldier had a deeper connection to the founding stock of America than their Union counterparts which adds another dimension to the ethical nature of the conflict. Is it right to import foreigners to put down a native secessionist movement?
 
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