War US to let Turkish forces move into Syria, dumping Kurdish allies - White House reveals policy shift, which follows conversation between Trump and Erdoğan

US to let Turkish forces move into Syria, dumping Kurdish allies White House reveals policy shift, which follows conversation between Trump and Erdoğan www.theguardian.com Julian Borger - October 7, 2019 The White House has given the green light to a Turkish offensive into northern Syria, moving US forces out of the area in an abrupt foreign policy change that will in effect abandon Washington’s longtime allies, the Kurds. Kurdish forces have spearheaded the campaign against Islamic State in the region, but the policy swerve, after a phone conversation between Donald Trump and Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on Sunday, means Turkey would take custody of captured Isis fighters, the White House said. It has also raised fears of fresh fighting between Turkey and Kurdish forces in Syria’s complex war now the US no longer acts as a buffer between the two sides. The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) said on Monday morning that their US partners had already begun withdrawing troops from areas along Turkey’s border. Footage aired on Kurdish news agency Hawar purportedly showed US armoured vehicles leaving positions near the towns of Ras al-Ayn and Tal Abyad in the border region. The SDF spokesman, Mustafa Bali, accused the US of leaving the area to “turn into a war zone”, adding that the SDF would “defend north-east Syria at all costs”. A statement from the Turkish foreign minister, Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, also early on Monday said that Ankara had “supported the territorial integrity of Syria since the beginning of the crisis and will continue to do so … [We are] determined to ensure survivability and security of Turkey by clearing the region from terrorists. We will contribute to bringing safety, peace and stability to Syria.” The decision represents the latest in a series of erratic moves by Trump, fighting impeachment at home, apparently taken without consultation with, or knowledge of, US diplomats dealing with Syria. Ruben Gallego, an Iraq war veteran and Democratic congressman from Arizona, tweeted: “Allowing Turkey to move into northern Syria is one of the most destabilising moves we can do in the Middle East. The Kurds will never trust America again. They will look for new alliances or independence to protect themselves.” In August, the US and Turkey came to an agreement to create a “safe zone” in northern Syria, by which the US-backed Kurdish-led SDF would pull back from the border. Ankara sees the SDF as indistinguishable from Kurdish insurgents inside Turkey and views it as a serious security threat. The safe zone deal was due to forestall a Turkish military offensive. In the White House statement issued just before 11 pm on Sunday, however, that agreement was not mentioned. “Today, President Donald J Trump spoke with President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan of Turkey by telephone,” the surprise statement said. “Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long-planned operation into northern Syria. The United States Armed Forces will not support or be involved in the operation, and United States forces, having defeated the Isis territorial ‘caliphate’, will no longer be in the immediate area.” The statement suggested that in return for US acquiescence in a Turkish offensive, Erdoğan had assured Trump that Turkey would take over the detention of Isis militants captured by the SDF, on the battlefield. The custody of Europeans and other foreign fighters has long been one of Trump’s preoccupations, and he has lambasted European governments for not taking responsibility for their own nationals in Isis ranks. “The US government has pressed France, Germany, and other European nations, from which many captured Isis fighters came, to take them back, but they did not want them and refused,” the White House statement continued. “The US will not hold them for what could be many years and great cost to the United States taxpayer. Turkey will now be responsible for all Isis fighters in the area captured over the past two years in the wake of the defeat of the territorial caliphate by the United States.” Syria experts warned that the US abandonment of the SDF would lead to another, new front in the eight-year Syrian conflict, and could push the Kurds into seeking an arrangement with the Assad regime in Damascus. Two weeks ago, at the UN general assembly, the US special envoy for the global coalition to defeat Isis, James Jeffrey, stressed that the US had an agreement with Turkey on a safe zone, in recognition of Ankara’s security concerns, that obviated the need for an Turkish incursion. “We listen to the Turks’ concerns. We try to respond to them when we can,” Jeffrey said. “And we have made it clear to Turkey at every level that any unilateral operation is not going to lead to an improvement in anyone’s security – not Turkey’s, not the people in the north-east, not the people around the world who feel threatened by Daesh [Isis], which is the basic purpose for our US military being in the north-east in the first place.” Another outcome of the Trump-Erdoğan call is that the Turkish leader is expected to visit the White House next month.

 

[BR55]

No it hasn't there was a report of an ISIS jail break, ISIS is trying to regroup.

Trump says he doesn't want any ISIS prisoners to escape during Turkey's offensive, but a new video is said to show just that

The Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) have shared video claiming to show ISIS prisoners escaping during Turkish attacks.

www.businessinsider.com

Hm you know what would help keep ISIS suppressed?
Having a functional government in the area instead of Kurdish militia and a couple hundred American "advisors" would go a long way to keeping this shit from happening.
I'm not even going to bother asking you for the upteenth time what your long term plan is, or why we should care about Syria or the Kurds, because you'll just give me more self righteous weeping about ISIS and the poor noble Kurds.
By the way if you care so much then you should do as one of us suggested and go enlist.
You get to be one of the poor bastards sitting in the desert for all of your adult life for no fucking gain whatsoever.
You won't do it of course because like any good chickenhawk you prefer to simperingly snipe at others from the sidelines.
Max Boot and Bill Kristol are proud of you.

 

[Shining Nova]

Oh wow oh geeze oh man time to start firing on a NATO ally to protect a no-name group of exceptional individuals who we used as geopolitical pawns.

Oh wait I couldn't give less of a shit. I don't want any more american lives and tax dollars wasted on this stupid as fuck incursion that started because of people like you justifying going into the region decades ago to begin with, that as far as I'm aware we still don't have a declaration of war to even be allowed.

Like I said if you're so concerned how about you fly over there and volunteer?

Yet we are sending double the number of troops we had in Syria to Saudi Arabia. What happen to America First?

Pentagon sends new wave of troops to Saudi Arabia even as Trump calls for ending wars

The deployment is meant to “assure and enhance the defense of Saudi Arabia,” a spokesman said, following attacks on the kingdom’s oil infrastructure last month.

www.politico.com

 

[Unog]

Yet we are sending double the number of troops we had in Syria to Saudi Arabia. What happen to America First?

Pentagon sends new wave of troops to Saudi Arabia even as Trump calls for ending wars

The deployment is meant to “assure and enhance the defense of Saudi Arabia,” a spokesman said, following attacks on the kingdom’s oil infrastructure last month.

www.politico.com

I responded to this shit with someone else's post on the last page. Repeating yourself and selectively ignoring points other people are making isn't a good look bud.

What part of "stable" and "not having the 2010's version of the Balkans crisis within their borders" don't you understand?
I don't like the Saudis at all and would like it if we told them to fuck off too tbh but there is a hell of a difference between deploying troops to sit around looking impressive in a a country without conflict within it's borders and sending troops to prop up an ethnostate of a universally despised minority in a country undergoing the worst war of our century.
Look I'm really sorry reality doesn't line up with your childish notions of Heroic and Honorable America vs. Evil Freedom Haters but it's time to grow up and quit living in a fantasy world.
How about you try educating yourself about the situation in the middle east instead of crying about the poor little Kurds and our "alliances".

You're fucking retarded by the way if you actually think sending americans to die for a bunch of retards in the ME is somehow putting America first. With the way you keep repeating yourself I wouldn't be surprised if you actually were.

 

[millais]

Yet we are sending double the number of troops we had in Syria to Saudi Arabia. What happen to America First?

Pentagon sends new wave of troops to Saudi Arabia even as Trump calls for ending wars

The deployment is meant to “assure and enhance the defense of Saudi Arabia,” a spokesman said, following attacks on the kingdom’s oil infrastructure last month.

www.politico.com

Trump is sending a couple of fighter squadrons and air defense batteries to SA. No ground-pounding infantry, no "boots on the ground" as the news media like to call it. It's not a massive commitment in manpower or escalation of the stakes of US participation in defense of SA.

 

[soft kitty]

Because over the last week we've learned that entire swathes of the American public and the media in general are perfectly willing to keep us permanently entrenched in the Middle East because Orange Man Bad. He's literally turned them all into War Hawks in the blink of an eye purely to spite him. Watching all of these people who have been staunchly defending pulling our troops out of Syria immediately whip around and demand that Trump send them all back still has my head spinning.

You and I must watch the same shows because I heard someone make this exact point, I can't remember who, Styx maybe?

 

[GnomeofDoc]

The Syrian Observatory says the Syrian Kurds have taken this town back from the Turks.
If I remember correctly the SO is a propaganda organization for the Kurds based out of the UK.

 

[Shining Nova]

Trump is sending a couple of fighter squadrons and air defense batteries to SA. No ground-pounding infantry, no "boots on the ground" as the news media like to call it. It's not a massive commitment in manpower or escalation of the stakes of US participation in defense of SA.

Trump said he is doing it because the Saudis pay well, this is not about defense this is about a pay check. We swore to protect the Kurds and we failed, yet we are more than willing to send our military to SA as long as they pay us. We sent more troops to SA than we did to Syria almost double.

 

[Salt_Merchant]

which endless war is going to be your favorite?

the one where the US open fire on their NATO allies to defend a communist militia?

the one where they carve out a country for a militia out of like 4 other countries, 2 of which are allies of the US.

The one where said 4 countries immediately declare war in order to take back said land they just had carved out of them

or

the one where the US are forced to remain in said country they created till the heat death of the universe in order to preserve the nation state they created?

 

[Unog]

Trump said he is doing it because the Saudis pay well, this is not about defense this is about a pay check. We swore to protect the Kurds and we failed, yet we are more than willing to send our military to SA as long as they pay us. We sent more troops to SA than we did to Syria almost double.

Every point you just made has already been taken out back and shot.

Whatever, you keep on repeating shit like a neocon parrot. At this point I think you're just shitting up the thread for the sake of it, whatever the reason behind it may be.

 

[millais]

Trump said he is doing it because the Saudis pay well, this is not about defense this is about a pay check. We swore to protect the Kurds and we failed, yet we are more than willing to send our military to SA as long as they pay us. We sent more troops to SA than we did to Syria almost double.

The only thing we are obligated to do for the Syrian Kurds is, at most, to provide them with a humanitarian corridor so they can move to Iraqi Kurdistan if they don't want to join Assad's government. They knew the free ride could not last forever. No one ever promised them an independent Kurdish state in Syria, and in fact they have been rather unsporting about ethnically cleansing their "liberated" territory of Arabs and other non-Kurdish ethnic groups.

It's a little something called realpolitik. When the balance of forces shifts on the ground, it's unfortunate but necessary to reorient the policy towards advancing American interests, even at the cost of sacrificing these Syrian Kurds to Big Daddy Turkroach.

 

[Shining Nova]

Every point you just made has already been taken out back and shot.

Whatever, you keep on repeating shit like a neocon parrot. At this point I think you're just shitting up the thread for the sake of it, whatever the reason behind it may be.

Trump said no more "Endless Wars" yet he sent troops to SA. He lied to the people.

 

[millais]

Trump said no more "Endless Wars" yet he sent troops to SA. He lied to the people.

The "war" is in Yemen, not SA.

How is he going to pursue the war in Yemen with the deployment of air defense elements to SA? It's inherently defensive deployment in nature, while the Saudi action in Yemen is inherently offensive in nature.

 

[Unog]

Trump said no more "Endless Wars" yet he sent troops to SA. He lied to the people.

Yeah, you're trolling. This one was a bit too obvious what with the counterarguments to this statement being on this very same page.

You're a lot better at this than most in A&H, I'll give you that, but like I've said before, pretending to be retarded is still being retarded.

 

[MrTickles]

Every man and his dog is munching up Kurdish held territory:

US is still lingering around the 'kurdish held' oil fields in the south-east, predictably.

 

[heathercho]

We promised that we would have their backs, Kurds lost thousands in the against ISIS in Syria, while the US took no casualties at all. Trump then pulled out troops delcaring an end to "endless wars" yet he then sent 2000 troops double that were in Syria to Saudi Arabia, and defending that decision with "Because they pay us" he is turning the military into a mercenary force.

Kim threatens South Korea every day, launches missiles into the sea yearly and we are there in the region. We should offer the Kurd's the same protection we are doing it for Japan and South Korea.

South Korea has the 11th largest economy in the world. Japan has the 3rd.
I'm going to pretend you didn't just compare them to a smattering of stateless Kurds.

The Kim Jong Un situation has been handled extremely well by Trump. In fact, better than any other US president could ever have dreamed of. You know why? Trump kept China in mind.
You don't have troops in SK because of KJU. You have troops in SK because of China. You have troops in Japan, because... that's right - China.
Japan is unique in that, like Hawaii, it offers an island out port for keeping an eye on China.
South Korea is butted right up against China. You act as if South Korea doesn't have a military or a state of its own.

Most importantly, they also aren't in active conflict. A show of force in the area doesn't get soldiers killed. A show of force in Japan doesn't get soldiers killed.
You have nearly as many soldiers deployed to Germany as you do to SK. I wonder why that would be... could it possibly be.... strategy?

Deploying real people to real conflict zones isn't something to take lightly. Trump understands that. Trump understands that when a retarded Kurd turns their gun on a US soldier a real body has to go home. A real family have to grieve the loss of their love one... and for what? A handful of stateless people who demand something utterly ridiculous and could turn at any time. There is no "making progress" because what they want is impossible.

As for Saudi Arabia, "money" isn't the case. 2000 troops to the 900 or so you already have there is nothing to protect the interests of the US in that area.

“The troops that we are sending into Saudi and the enhanced assets are defensive,’’ said Brian H. Hook, the State Department’s special representative for Iran. “They are there to defend our interests and to help Saudi defend itself.”
“Saudi Arabia is a longstanding security partner in the Middle East, and has asked for additional support to supplement their own defenses,” Mr. Esper told reporters at the Pentagon, noting that he had called Saudi officials Friday morning to notify them.
In the wake of the drone and missile strikes, which temporarily crippled about half of Saudi’s oil production, Mr. Trump initially weighed taking direct military action against Iran. The attacks, which Secretary of State Mike Pompeo recently called “an act of war,” rattled global energy markets.

Trump Orders Troops and Weapons to Saudi Arabia in Message of Deterrence to Iran

The announcement came five days after Mr. Trump said his desire to end America’s “endless wars” led him to pull back troops from the Syria-Turkey border.

www.nytimes.com

Do you not understand that there are assets and interests to protect there? That, like it or not, they are tangible things that have real world consequences? That a show of force is useful there as security for something tangible.
It isn't sending someone off to an endless war, it's asset protection and strategic defense.

Whether you like it or not, having your finger on the pulse in certain areas over others is a perfectly reasonable approach. The US has vested interests in Saudi Arabia that, if harmed, threaten the sovereignty of the US.
Kurds who want the impossible aren't a vested interest and nor do they impact the sovereignty of the US, they're just a bunch of people who should hurry up and strike a deal with Syria and stop wanting the impossible.

Even if you are trolling, it doesn't really matter because people have those beliefs and they're completely illogical.

 

[Shining Nova]

The "war" is in Yemen, not SA.

How is he going to pursue the war in Yemen with the deployment of air defense elements to SA? It's inherently defensive deployment in nature, while the Saudi action in Yemen is inherently offensive in nature.

Trump said he didn't care he was putting an end to these "endless wars" in the Middle East and was bringing our troops home. By sending them to SA he is turning his back on his campaign promise. No more endless wars means no more endless wars. If he is going to pull out of middle east he can't half ass it. Leave Saudi Arabia to fight its own battles, because if the Saudis can get our aid so can the Kurds. If the Kurds can't get our aid neither should the Saudis if the Saudis want help they can ask their neighbors or Russia for assistance.

 

[millais]

Trump said he didn't care he was putting an end to these "endless wars" in the Middle East and was bringing our troops home. By sending them to SA he is turning his back on his campaign promise. No more endless wars means no more endless wars. If he is going to pull out of middle east he can't half ass it. Leave Saudi Arabia to fight its own battles, because if the Saudis can get our aid so can the Kurds. If the Kurds can't get our aid neither should the Saudis if the Saudis want help they can ask their neighbors or Russia for assistance.

I reiterate, there is no war in SA. The war is on the other side of the water in Yemen.

Would you consider it to be starting an "endless war" in the South China Sea if Trump sent a Patriot battery to Manila?

 

[Shining Nova]

South Korea has the 11th largest economy in the world. Japan has the 3rd.
I'm going to pretend you didn't just compare them to a smattering of stateless Kurds.

The Kim Jong Un situation has been handled extremely well by Trump. In fact, better than any other US president could ever have dreamed of. You know why? Trump kept China in mind.
You don't have troops in SK because of KJU. You have troops in SK because of China. You have troops in Japan, because... that's right - China.
Japan is unique in that, like Hawaii, it offers an island out port for keeping an eye on China.
South Korea is butted right up against China. You act as if South Korea doesn't have a military or a state of its own.

Most importantly, they also aren't in active conflict. A show of force in the area doesn't get soldiers killed. A show of force in Japan doesn't get soldiers killed.
You have nearly as many soldiers deployed to Germany as you do to SK. I wonder why that would be... could it possibly be.... strategy?

Deploying real people to real conflict zones isn't something to take lightly. Trump understands that. Trump understands that when a exceptional Kurd turns their gun on a US soldier a real body has to go home. A real family have to grieve the loss of their love one... and for what? A handful of stateless people who demand something utterly ridiculous and could turn at any time. There is no "making progress" because what they want is impossible.

As for Saudi Arabia, "money" isn't the case. 2000 troops to the 900 or so you already have there is nothing to protect the interests of the US in that area.

Trump Orders Troops and Weapons to Saudi Arabia in Message of Deterrence to Iran

The announcement came five days after Mr. Trump said his desire to end America’s “endless wars” led him to pull back troops from the Syria-Turkey border.

www.nytimes.com

Do you not understand that there are assets and interests to protect there? That, like it or not, they are tangible things that have real world consequences? That a show of force is useful there as security for something tangible.
It isn't sending someone off to an endless war, it's asset protection and strategic defense.

Whether you like it or not, having your finger on the pulse in certain areas over others is a perfectly reasonable approach. The US has vested interests in Saudi Arabia that, if harmed, threaten the sovereignty of the US.
Kurds who want the impossible aren't a vested interest and nor do they impact the sovereignty of the US, they're just a bunch of people who should hurry up and strike a deal with Syria and stop wanting the impossible.

Even if you are trolling, it doesn't really matter because people have those beliefs and they're completely illogical.

You don't understand. Any progress Trump has made with North Korea has came to a halt. Trump was a big deal three years ago because people didn't know what to expect. Now they do and Trump's little triads aren't as effective any more.

Little Sign of Progress in US-North Korea Talks

The chances of an agreement appear to be receding.

thediplomat.com

Kim launched a missle that landed near Japan's waters. We have gone back to square one. Kim realized that Trump wasn't going to give him what he wanted and stopped cooperating with Trump.

South Korea and Japan were not powerhouses overnight it took years for them to get where they are today.

America shouldn't have abandoned the Kurds like that. Trump told the world that the US can't be a reliable ally. How is that making America better? Trump showed us that he doesn't understand politics and because of that people are less likely to help the US.

 

[who dare wins?]

[sorry if this is extremely wrong and/ or derailing current discussions]

this is at least my views on what both the FSA and turks will probably do next in terms of plans and tactics

first I will look at the Manbij region and try to estimate the turk backed FSA plans are. the most probable outcome or wanted outcome shown by this photo which divides the operation up into "stages". the FSA will probably encircle the city of Manbij and force a siege into the Kurds or try to capture the city head on if the Kurds fall face flat on their own defences (somewhat likely). from their the FSA will probably try to capture the Euphrates Dam to cause both a political and morale loss for assad and also cause major disruptions of power to Aleppo,Homs,Hama and even Damascus.

in the norther Rojava reigon the 3 major objectives would be to crush the city of al as Ayn and take it from the Kurds. the second objective would be to take hasakah from the SAA and also the laughable SDF and finally the the Ayn Issa base from the SDF. shown by the stages here the turk forces located int he pocket was of al as Ayn would likely connect with the major pocket before ovens across the turk/syrian border. the major pocket would then go for hasakah and the ain Issa base, encircle them and take them over OR if there defences are really shitty take it head on and take it over (again a very likely possibility)

I would like to propose the question that is it possible for the FSA to take Manbij? judging by previous history, equipment.,training and tactics. and if they did? what would the FSA in Manbij do next?

 

[heathercho]

You don't understand. Any progress Trump has made with North Korea has came to a halt. Trump was a big deal three years ago because people didn't know what to expect. Now they do and Trump's little triads aren't as effective any more.

Little Sign of Progress in US-North Korea Talks

The chances of an agreement appear to be receding.

thediplomat.com

Kim launched a missle that landed near Japan's waters. We have gone back to square one. Kim realized that Trump wasn't going to give him what he wanted and stopped cooperating with Trump.

South Korea and Japan were not powerhouses overnight it took years for them to get where they are today.

America shouldn't have abandoned the Kurds like that. Trump told the world that the US can't be a reliable ally. How is that making America better? Trump showed us that he doesn't understand politics and because of that people are less likely to help the US.

I would wager I know better than most what the situation with NK is, thanks for playing though.