Iran Crisis & the 2026 War between Iran and the United States, Gulf States, and Israel - Please focus on news and coverage, not argumentation.

What're the general feelings on an "EU army" across the pond anyway, I don't think I've ever seen a person that didn't speak at the WEF actually respond positively to the concept.
Nato member states barely do what is required by the treaty they willingly signed. Add on the fact that the French have been constantly flip-flopping between doing everything but actually leaving NATO to separate themselves from NATO, and actually being an adult and a proper member state. So while some Euros might fantasize about it, it won't happen, and if it does happen, it will be in a sad, sad state.
 
What're the general feelings on an "EU army" across the pond anyway, I don't think I've ever seen a person that didn't speak at the WEF actually respond positively to the concept.

I think that armed forces across Western Europe are "top heavy" with top brass and not enough tanks and ships and it will never happen without an actual existential threat emerging. It would be the best way for Europe (and I mean Europe not just the EU) being able to meaningfully defend itself in the event of a major war.

I think it's far more likely than a "United States of Europe".

Though these are more my thoughts than general feelings.
 
- Prices are going up.
- It's not our war.
- Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya were disasters.
- Iran is not a threat to us.
- Russia is more important.
- What even is an "Iran"?
Great post. I appreciate the insight!

I do want to point out that everything you listed above (with the exception of a couple) is exactly how a lot of Americans feel about Ukraine/Russia. Thats why Euros acting like it’s insane for the US to request some backing is kind of insulting. It’s expected that the US would provide weapons, funding, and training to Ukraine because European allies are concerned about Russia even though most Americans don’t give a shit and Russia taking some of Ukraine doesn’t change a thing in our lives.

I still can’t understand why the world, but Europe more specifically, feels it’s acceptable to have a hostile terrorist nation control a critical choke point like the Strait of Hormuz. If their economies are so dependent on oil freely moving through, why not contribute to making sure it can? This part baffles me. I can see that they’d be pissed Trump stirred the hornets nest but to pretend “we’ll appease them until something really bad happens” would work forever is nuts.
 
I realise the venting at Europe is cathartic, but I'd like to inject a little reality into the discussion: Europe's response to this war has absolutely nothing to do with its muslim population. For several reasons. It also has nothing to do with Trump or the left. Nor is it spite against the US, or wanting to free-ride off of it. As a person from a European country I can say there are real, strategic reasons stemming from national interests for why European countries would not want to join in with bombing Iran. I will outline them, but let me be clear, this is not what I personally think about the war, it is just reasons why Europe specifically would not want to get involved too much.

Why Islam doesn't matter here:

Firstly, and here I am defining Europe as all European countries with a majority of their territory located in the European continent (so excluding Russia, Turkey, Kazahkstan, Georgia and Azerbaijan), the muslim population is about 5% of the total population of Europe. Most of them concentrated in a few big cities in the most wealthy and urbanised nations, with the exception of the Balkan states where widespread indigenous muslim communities exist. I understand this will be hard for people with a particular mental picture of Europe to accept, but it is simply not the case that this 5% muslim population is electorally significant. It is in some specific constituencies, but in national elections, or EU elections, who or what muslims are voting for does not matter. The remaining 95% of the electorate has, as you would expect, the prevailing say in what the policy agenda is going to be focused on.

The fact that France is about 10% muslim and the UK is about 6% muslim does not make France 4% more likely to do what muslims want. The fact that Europe is about 5% muslim and the US is about 1% muslim does not make Europe five times more likely to do what muslims want. In all cases the relatively small muslim population is by itself politically irrelevant. It only manages to influence policy by aligning with other, larger groups where there is a shared policy goal. One example would be aligning with the left to oppose Israel's bombing of Gaza, where there is a shared view of sympathy with the Palestinians, for the same (humanitarian) and different (religious) reasons. Other cases would be aligning with right-wing Christians to oppose issues like gay marriage or abortion, where there is a shared religious opposition. But they can only ever be a small part of a larger coalition.

Secondly, there is also the fact that the current Iran War is not a war against Islam. It is a war against a Shia theocracy which only has significance to Shia muslims. The vast majority of muslims in Europe are Sunni muslims. They despise Shia Islam and the Iranian regime in particular. Most muslims in the world view the Iranian Islamic revolution, which is intended to be a global Shia revolution, as a threat to "real" (Sunni) Islam. Furthermore, they are not exactly happy to see this Shia regime firing rockets and drones against the Sunni countries in the Gulf. Since most European muslims are Sunni, they would absolutely love to see the Iranian regime be destroyed. It weakens Shia influence in the world and would be a liberation for the Sunni minorities (5-10% of the population) who are oppressed in Iran. Iran's regime is their religious enemy, not their muslim "brothers".

What actually does matter here:

Europe has real, tangible reasons to be wary of this war with regards to actual national and broader European interests. The most obvious one is economic - before this war started, oil was flowing freely. After this war started, oil flows are threatened and prices are rising. Europe is both more economically and more politically vulnerable to these price spikes than the US is. We've just had two major crises - the Covid Pandemic and the Russia-Ukraine War - which have damaged growth and caused major inflation. And that has ruffled European politics, which is inherently more unstable than US politics is, because of different voting systems and a more diverse political landscape across the continent compared to America. From Europe's perspective, it is as though we have just gotten over a nasty cold, and the US is now carelessly coughing flu germs in our face.

There are geopolitical considerations as well. Iran is not really viewed as a direct threat to European security. At the very least, it is not high on the threat priority list. Russia is currently the top security concern in Europe. If this Iran War serves to strengthen Russia by diverting air defences from Ukraine and putting more money in the Kremlin's treasury from oil sales, then that is not a desirable strategic trade-off from the European perspective, even if weakening Iran would in a vacuum be desirable for Europe. So it's not that European governments don't want to see the Iranian regime fall - they almost certainly do - they just have other security priorities which could be undermined at the moment.

Then there is the US relationship. The US has made it clear they want to focus on other parts of the world, and for Europe to focus on its own neighbourhood. They've also annoyed Europe with the whole Greenland thing. This new relationship requires a decoupling from US strategic action. And this is not unilateral, it is a mutual thing that was initiated by Trump. It stands to reason that if the US will do less in Europe's sphere of influence, Europe will do less in America's sphere of influence. Europe believes it has a vital interest in Ukraine - the US does not. The US believes it has a vital interest in Iran - Europe does not. So Europe is focusing on Ukraine and the US is focusing on Iran. This is exactly what America has proclaimed that it wants from the European relationship, and it's why they did not even ask Europe to join the US-Israeli strikes in the first place.

Lastly, two further relevant details - Europe has large numbers of citizens living in the Gulf states. The UK alone has over 300,000 expats living there. It does cause a headache for them when said expats start getting bombed because a war has broken out. There are also concerns surrounding international law. I know international law as a concept has become a bit of a joke, but European countries remain wedded to the idea because, as smaller states, they benefit from a rules-based system existing. So if any country, be it Russia or America, undermines that concept, it can make them nervous. Of course that is not always the case (UK, Spain and Poland were happy to ignore international law during the 2003 Iraq War). It is also not entirely clear if this war is actually illegal (I personally think a strong legal case in favour can be made given how Iran has behaved with its proxies and nuclear program).

That's the governmental reasoning, anyway. For your average man on the street, wariness stems from the following:

- Prices are going up.
- It's not our war.
- Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya were disasters.
- Iran is not a threat to us.
- Russia is more important.
- What even is an "Iran"?

In short, ordinary people are soured on Middle East wars, worried about Russia, and worried about the cost of living. I don't think Iran was on anyone's mind before this started. I'm sure there are plenty of deranged libtards seething at Orange Hitler too but, this is Europe, not America, and Trump is not at the forefront of everyone's minds here.

Some additional points:

Before people jump down my throat, I am not saying that Europe doesn't have a problem with muslims, or that such problems are not getting worse, or that muslims cannot be relevant in a political dispute in a European country. Islam is a big problem in Europe and if anything people should be more concerned about it. It's just not remotely accurate to suggest that Europe having muslims in it is dictating European foreign policy. At least not today, and certainly not on this specific issue. There are far too few of them and the Shia vs Sunni aspect complicates it further. The problem with muslims at the moment is crime and terrorism, not political influence. We are not there yet, and let's hope we never get to that point.

I also want to be clear that Europe does have reasons to support the war and could stand to benefit from the outcome, assuming the outcome goes our way. Every European would agree that a democratic secular Iran with friendly relations with the West would be good for us. We would all agree that the current regime is abhorrent and an enemy. The complicating factor is that although an enemy, Iran was also viewed as weak and therefore manageable. War however is chaotic, risky and imposes consequences no one wants to deal with. So the question is not so much, this war = good or bad? It's more like, this war = worth it or another mess about to unfold? Leaders care mostly about stability and the oil flowing.

Europe was also frazzled; the different interests at play seem to have confused the European response. Most European countries have given an official response to the war of "we hate the Iranian regime, and we want this war to end quickly". Which is probably an accurate statement. Some were more supportive, some more hesitant. I imagine most European leaders are hoping for a US victory, but a swift one, so we can get a friendly Iranian regime and a resumption of normal shipping flow. Hesitation to allow the use of bases was likely due to a concern of entanglement; Europeans don't want to be drawn into a war they don't need when there is a war ongoing in Europe (Ukraine) against a more important threat (Russia).

Europe has been willing to help in some ways as the conflict has grown. When Iran decided to chimp out and fire missiles at everyone around them, including UK sovereign bases on Cyprus via their proxy Hezbollah, Europe sent warships, fighter jets, AA systems and technical personnel to help with the air defence operation in the Gulf. They have since shot down many Iranian drones and missiles. This helps the US since it frees up their own resources to focus on striking targets in Iran. European bases are now also being permitted for US forces to strike from; in the UK context the wording was "the US can use our bases to defensively strike at Iranian launchers" (this is legal loophole language, the US is being given a greenlight to do whatever it wants). Intelligence sharing has also increased to assist the US operation.

Final point:

There seems to be some cognitive dissonance taking place in some people's heads here. On the one hand, Europe is useless and we don't need their help. On the other, we actually do want their help but Europe is being selfish. Furthermore, people think that Europe and America have been too focused on European affairs (such as Ukraine), and this is unfair for America, so America should focus on its own interests and Europe do likewise. Which is actually a reasonable position with plenty of merit. But then when America pursues its interests (Iran) and Europe pursues its interests (Ukraine), now suddenly we need the old alliance back in action and if America goes to war with some random sand people country, Europe needs to go with them, otherwise they are "bad allies". Even though separate strategic focuses for each half of the alliance was America's idea.

I think if we really are going to have this new direction for the Western alliance, where Europe focuses on Russia and the US focuses on China and the oil states, then fine, let's do that. But if so can we really commit to it, and not backtrack immediately? And not cry about who is doing what? The US doesn't even need Europe for this job. Western allies pursuing their own operational priorities is nothing new. The US opposed the UK-France Suez operation. It did not send troops to help the UK liberate the Falklands, nor did it aid France in Algeria. The UK did not send troops to Vietnam and France did not help invade Iraq. And this did not always mean the reluctant ally did not support the overall goal of the mission. There comes a point where it feels like the frustration towards Europe is not born of strategic asymmetry as much as petty grievance counting.
some notes:

>muslims are politically irrelevant because there are few of them
this is not true. large portions of euro politicians have made appeasing and pandering to muslims a central part of their ideology. if those 5% can bully another ~25% into doing their bidding, you're now looking at substantial political influence, much greater than the raw pop numbers would lead you to believe.
also, those muslims and their appeasers are all concentrated in the most influential and powerful countries (germany, france, belgium, netherlands, UK) who have a much larger impact on overall euro policy than the countries with no muslims, further amplifying their (indirect) political power.

lots of euro leaders are just straight up submissive towards islam, out of fear. to them, the rationale is like this:
>if i antagonize orange man he might put some more tariffs on us.
>but if i antagonize islam i might end up getting charlie hebdo'd, pim fortuyn'd, or salman rushdie'd!
so they default to doing whatever will appease the muslims, whatever is least likely to make them chimp out.

>shia vs sunni
this too is short-sighted. iran has spent heaps of time and money on trying to overcome this religious animosity by positioning itself as the chief anti israel power and supporting various sunni groups such as hamas in their anti israel activities. this is a big reason for their outspoken anti israel and anti america position.
yes the sunnis disagree with the persian heretics on theological grounds, but that is much lower priority than their hate for the common enemy (americans and jews) so they are more than willing to ignore the sunni-shia divide when it comes to opposing america and israel.
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
I think that armed forces across Western Europe are "top heavy" with top brass and not enough tanks and ships and it will never happen without an actual existential threat emerging. It would be the best way for Europe (and I mean Europe not just the EU) being able to meaningfully defend itself in the event of a major war.

I think it's far more likely than a "United States of Europe".

Though these are more my thoughts than general feelings.
Remember that the last time the Euros came close to a "continental army". It existed because of American armor and logistics. Sure, the occupied nations fought bravely, but they weren't exactly in a position to liberate themselves. I mean, the French, which was probably the largest continental army, quickly collapsed. While that was 80 years ago, the domestic military situation within Europe is far far worse. The UK is a shadow of a shadow of itself, the Germans can't fund their own domestic army, idk what the French are fucking doing. They NEED the United States to militarily keep them focused.
 
What're the general feelings on an "EU army" across the pond anyway, I don't think I've ever seen a person that didn't speak at the WEF actually respond positively to the concept.
Frowned upon at least. EE knows that such an army is going to hide behind the odra when the horde comes leaving the slavs to get raped. Germans of course love the idea since they are the main country to benefit from it. The french never liked it, and the southerners are as always irrelevant.

But an idea of essentially NATO 2: European Boogaloo has been gaining traction after the great Greenland temper tantrum.
 
If you wanted European men to go die for ZOG so bad maybe you shouldn’t have spent your whole term insulting them and threatening to invade Greenland.
But it’s pretty funny though. It will be even funnier when drumf fucks them later on and they act shocked and bewildered.
Maybe America shouldn't have retardedly burnt bridges with pointless dick swinging over Greenland, creating tension for no reason. Maybe Europe doesn't appreciate kikes creating a global oil crisis and then be asked to solve it or else. I'm sure this pointless adventure in the middle east will give Republicans the presidency in 28!
Based euros tbh. May the Muslims rule the earth
Mohammed is a false prophet, and a pedophile, and he was butt-fucked by "jinn"/"al-Zutt".

Also:
Hear, O Israel, the L-rd is our G‑d, the L-rd is One.

I can't co sign the Christ stuff (cuz I'm a Jew) but as long as you aren't being polytheistic and idol worshipping I guess I can put up with it. But you're gonna look very silly when the Messiah comes back and he's not Jesus. But it's fine God judges you on your character and action first (unless you're a jew then we get judged on how good a jew we were because we "chose" that responsibility)
Christ is king Jew!
My man, he is being blackmailed by Israel because Epstein has him on VHS fucking a preteen.
>muh epstein
> "what do you mean I have to provide evidence to back up this huge claim!?!? Shut up gooooy"

I cannot believe fucking Israel is becoming more reasonable to me, just because a bunch of subhuman Muhammed worshipers have seemingly infiltrated American discourse (much like their Jewish counterparts). Drumf better finish this up so I can never think of either party again.
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
A new day, a new country Iran declares war on


Iran’s Armed Forces addressing the Muslim people of Jordan:
The Muslim people of Jordan should demand their government not to allow the criminal US and the illegitimate Zionist regime to use Jordanian territory as a launching point for aggression against Iran & its Muslim people.

And they threatened Britcucks:
1773793040752.png
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
The answer is that it's both. The EU is a single entity, but its a single entity that contains sovereign states as members, as oppose to the federal states of the US. Each member state can choose whether to cooperate militarily with the USA, or any other country - defence isn't (yet) under the purview of the EU.

When it comes to trade the EU operates as a bloc - that's why the EU is relevant when another country threatens trade with one member state. EU member states retain sovereignty despite this because each member state has chosen to trade as a bloc, and has the ability to pull out of that arrangement at any time a la Brexit.

This isn't an "identity crisis", it's what the EU is.
Trade is an EU issue. It's a trading bloc after all. Defense and such matters are mostly in the hands of the corresponding country and the EU has little to say on the matter. Tariffs against Spain would be kinda usless since most of the goods would then just be send to Portugal and shipped from there. Or to France and then from there since there are no tariffs between the countries of the bloc.

Kinda simliar on how there are issues that are only a topic on the federal level. While other topics are left in the sole discretion of the state level.
That isn't a satisfactory answer for the US in this situation though. Spain wasn't being blocked for a trade disagreement afterall - it was over military relations. This is part of the issue the US has with the EU. The EU can't pick and choose how it wants to get involved when it operates as a major block for most practical purposes. Relationships are dynamic and intertwined across multiple axes. Lets take NATO for example. The EU may not have any formal membership requirements for NATO, but the 2 are still undeniably linked and related. If an EU country that was not a member of NATO was attacked, NATO would almost certainly be called upon to defend them - rightfully so I would argue. This isn't a question of what is on paper, but of how relationships are actually structured, and the trust that instills.
 
Wtf is even the difference between the Sunni and the Shia anyway, like theologically?
to put it in absolutely dumb terms from my own loose understanding it stems from a division that occured after the death of mohammed about who should from that point lead the islamic nation. Sunni's stemmed from the faction that believed the next leader should be elected from among mohammeds disciples (supporting Abu Bakr), and Shia believed it should stay with mohammeds family as his family was divinely chosen (supporting Ali ibn Abi Talib).

From that point onward you can kind of water down the split into Sunnis want Caliphate (elected leadership) and Shias want Imamate leadership selected "by god"
 
Ostatnio edytowane:
Going from Britannia Rules the Waves to literally having more Admirals than functional ships seems like a pretty depressing state of affairs, ngl.
The UK has two aircraft carriers (and thanks to Labour), no amphibious landing craft (aka those "totally not aircraft carriers," please ignore the VTOL aircraft). And those two aircraft carriers couldn't allow the British to project power. They literally cannot protect Cyprus and Deago Garcia at the same time without US support. It's quite sad. Please don't look into the V-bombers if you don't want your day ruined.
 
Serious question, does this operation make Israel our greatest modern military ally?

The UK is becoming an authoritarian muslim shithole who won't get involved because it will piss off their muslim voting block. Starmer is compromised as far as Im concerned. Macron is a faggot barely hanging on and won't involve France because Trump bad and because of the same migrant issue. German is dealing with its own problems with migrants, trying to keep a viable army and propping up Ukraine. I like Meloni but Italy needs a push and can't extend their military like three I mentioned earlier.

You have Turkey which is stronger but they don't always play along with the US all the time, Poland is another strong state but they are understandably doing their own thing because they're so close to Russia border. South Korea is too politically unstable with all of their political baggage to be a global ally.

Japan has been warm with us ever since Shinzo, but so far they haven't taken place in kinetic military action and their constitution limits the military for now.

That leaves Israel who is the only one strong enough to start conflict with the US and neutralize the threat and put their people at risk to accomplish dual objectives.
If Israel is our only "ally", then the world at large are our enemies. Extrapolate what should be done regarding that as you will.
 
The answer is that it's both. The EU is a single entity, but its a single entity that contains sovereign states as members, as oppose to the federal states of the US. Each member state can choose whether to cooperate militarily with the USA, or any other country - defence isn't (yet) under the purview of the EU.

When it comes to trade the EU operates as a bloc - that's why the EU is relevant when another country threatens trade with one member state. EU member states retain sovereignty despite this because each member state has chosen to trade as a bloc, and has the ability to pull out of that arrangement at any time a la Brexit.

This isn't an "identity crisis", it's what the EU is.
Technically, the EU is solely an economic union. It’s not a confederacy or a military alliance. The nanny state aspects of EU are supposedly under the guise of ‘commerce’ and ‘trade’, but they can’t really do shit about military action.
 
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